tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post1037086322140279791..comments2023-08-06T07:02:49.496-04:00Comments on Little Steps Home: Faith, Part IIAmberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-47928095558963893752012-02-19T10:32:30.447-05:002012-02-19T10:32:30.447-05:00Ah. Yes, I was thinking more along the mainstream ...Ah. Yes, I was thinking more along the mainstream evangelical lines then. It's what I've encountered so it's what sticks in my mind. :)Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-86158415580411504612012-02-17T13:21:06.929-05:002012-02-17T13:21:06.929-05:00Ah, I see the problem. I think.
You're talkin...Ah, I see the problem. I think.<br /><br />You're talking about mainstream Christianity, by which you probably mean the more common evangelical interpretation, whereas I'm talking about a more liberal/universalist interpretation within Christianity. It's not as common, but it's there. Salvation doesn't mean the same thing to all Christians. So yes, for some theologies and for much of mainstream Christianity, what matters is belief. <br /><br />Salvation in the sense that I was describing isn't the same thing as becoming a Christian or getting into Heaven or whatever. The people I am talking about tend to be more universalist and don't believe anyone is going to Hell, so obviously salvation is not the same thing. They tend to talk about it more as redeeming the world. Everything we do and everything God does to restore the world and help us all heal is a step toward salvation. It's not salvation from being cut off from God or punished, it's salvation from our own brokenness, which comes when we help each other and act with compassion towards the rest of creation. That's why forgiving our enemies is so important, it undoes the damage of hate and allows us to heal and build something better.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382787889525110718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-53313851493089386692012-02-17T09:56:25.749-05:002012-02-17T09:56:25.749-05:00*laughs* It's always bugged me, really, that s...*laughs* It's always bugged me, really, that so many people think humans are so *bad* at their core. It makes no sense given the thought process I outlined. <br /><br />I think Mere Christianity is like...theology lite. It's meant to sort of introduce some theological concepts to people who may not be familiar with them or may just be learning but it doesn't go into very heavy details on a lot of things. Since it is just the written version of radio talks, that makes sense. There's no real chance for the give and take kind of discussion that would lead to more details coming out.Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-23041191364705922532012-02-17T09:09:56.615-05:002012-02-17T09:09:56.615-05:00I enjoy reading your thoughts no matter what you b...I enjoy reading your thoughts no matter what you believe. Same with Sanil. She does some great commentary on the Bible often giving me new perspectives to consider and helping me learn. :)<br /><br />Really interesting things here and I enjoyed the comments. I can see why you don't like the morally depraved aspect of some Christians' thinking. What you said makes a lot of sense re: God creating good. I'll have to ponder that some more. Thanks for making me think! And please keep reviewing theological books (or whatever you consider this Mere Christianity type) even if they aren't your chosen faith.Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-58248740312943022152012-02-16T09:50:02.972-05:002012-02-16T09:50:02.972-05:00Your comments are always welcome and valued, no ma...Your comments are always welcome and valued, no matter what wordy rabbit trails myself and some other commenters may go off on!<br /><br />I agree that all religions are the same experience, the experience of the divine, filtered through different cultures and time periods.<br /><br />I think that we've become so used to an institutional idea of religion that the simpler, more natural things can slip right on past us without us even noticing much of the time. That appears to be changing, the barriers breaking down in many people, but like all processes it's a slow one.Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-64389090296053543102012-02-16T09:30:05.735-05:002012-02-16T09:30:05.735-05:00But, let's say that you have an experience tha...But, let's say that you have an experience that may or may not have been divine. You don't know for sure, you have doubts. Your behavior changes afterward, but it's not because of the experience. You lack the intent behind the action. For some theologies, that would mean that those good deeds don't 'count' for you in the salvation process. Right?<br /><br />Christians may believe that every good act or thing that happens is an expression of God, but that doesn't mean that random acts of goodness are going to save people, which is the point of Christianity. So God choosing to act out through people who don't believe in Him doesn't necessarily 'save' those people.<br /><br />I'm not saying that point of view is right, just that that's my understanding of the mainstream Christian point of view on these things. And my understanding could very well be wrong. :)Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-75462215605128327092012-02-16T08:20:58.500-05:002012-02-16T08:20:58.500-05:00And then I went back and restored the post (yay Go...And then I went back and restored the post (yay Google Reader!) because what the hell.Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-11508961150482130122012-02-15T17:04:14.521-05:002012-02-15T17:04:14.521-05:00wow, those are some wordy comments. and mine will...wow, those are some wordy comments. and mine will be more about me and my thoughts in general, so will seem extremely simplistic compared to yours. so please ignore if required.<br /><br />all religions are based and taught on a level of goodness. and general knowledge of the time. The ten commandments etc. then they have been expanded on by man, bent and twisted.<br /><br />faith is something extremely personal and as mentioned earlier, one size does not fit all. <br /><br />to quote the film stigmata<br /><br />Jesus said... "the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood... and I am there, lift a stone... and you will find me." Obviously this is a film but I so get what it is trying to convey.<br /><br />you can have your own faith, religion etc, you dont need a building, a church or someone else to tell you or give you rules. you can worship in your own way...<br /><br />And then to further quote my 4 year old great niece, when looking at a dandelion weed in the garden. Just as I was about to spray it "Dont Rah Rah (that is what she calls me), its pretty and God made it."<br /><br />I think we all forget the miracles that surround us.<br /><br />Completely off all over the place and not very academic. rambling...Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00809314184012834659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-43625635001142780402012-02-15T13:44:15.381-05:002012-02-15T13:44:15.381-05:00Well, doubting the experience is God doesn't m...Well, doubting the experience is God doesn't mean it didn't change your behavior. Lewis believes (and I think many Christians agree with him) that every good thought comes from God. A more universalist friend of mine says that everything good is God, so that as a polytheist worshiping my gods, I'm really worshiping the one God. And so from that perspective even an atheist is honoring God by doing good things. From a monotheist perspective where there <b>is</b> only one God who is the beginning of all creation, and realizing that as you said in your deleted entry all (or at least, many) religions have about equal likelihood of being right, it makes sense that all those other religions are expressions of the same experience, interpreted differently through different cultures. And moving on from there, an atheist might not be able to get behind the idea of a personal god, but the same experience might lead them to think that there's still something good and meaningful about life, so there is reason to try to change things for the better rather than to simply exist. <br /><br />The salvific work isn't just doing something good. (After all, you could easily do good by accident, or because it helps you and it just happens to also help others.) Intention matters, a specific understanding of the divine doesn't. It's in the combined work of God and man, however that's understood. Responding to your own evolved altruistic ideals could be seen from a panentheist's point of view to be responding to the prompting of God. It's a step of faith (the way you explained faith in a previous entry), just not a step towards a certain orthodoxy.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382787889525110718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-7118053741644284082012-02-15T13:11:13.204-05:002012-02-15T13:11:13.204-05:00That's an interesting take, that believing its...That's an interesting take, that believing itself is a work.<br /><br />But, generally, isn't the theory that doing good works on their own isn't salvific? So I could save a hundred people by donating clothing or food or what have you because I have the ability and the means and believe that it is our duty as human beings to help others when we are able, all the while having historically had an experience of the divine but doubting it so that my actions are not related to this experience and therefore my works wouldn't be an act of salvation because they're not being done in the proper frame of mind and soul? Right? I mean, that's the mainstream thought process as I understand it. But your friend is saying that doing the good things, regardless of the motivation or the persons religious stance, is work that can 'save' them? I'm just trying to see if I've got this straight in my head! If so, very interesting. *steeples fingers in thought*<br /><br />I don't think that Lewis was saying you should ignore it altogether either, but his advice was to read it, set it down and walk away, continuing to carry on your life. That some day it will just *click* and mean something to you. I have a problem with that, but I admit that it's probably a character/personality issue with me. I don't like walking away from something until I understand it, dammit! Probably Lewis meant not to keep worrying at the issue, the way I do, and to let it percolate in the back of your brain while you're learning other things. In other words, gaining the foundational knowledge in order to comprehend. *sighs* Fine, Lewis can be reasonable here and I can't. :pAmberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002997517784638068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-42150375936975212062012-02-15T11:56:51.066-05:002012-02-15T11:56:51.066-05:00Ok, finished! :)
A group of friends at school ha...Ok, finished! :) <br /><br />A group of friends at school had some interesting thoughts on the whole faith vs. works question. I remember one of them stating that having to believe the right things is still works-righteousness. It's still people earning their salvation, it just warps it in a way that you don't have to actually do anything good for the world, you just have to accept what you're told and believe you're doing right. So he would take it a step further and say that there's more of a conversation going on, and belief might not come first or even be all that important (at least not more than anything else). Belief is one response to an experience of God, but being doubtful that the experience was actually God while still responding by helping the world is also a faithful, saving response. It's the give and take between God and man, whatever form that takes. (It's probably worth noting that salvation in this sense has nothing to do with "accepting Christ" in the way I was taught as a kid, believing and praying the right things. Rather, it's a process of redeeming the world through the combined effort of God and humanity. Or for panentheists, God's influence bringing all parts of creation into harmony.) <br /><br />It didn't seem to me like Lewis was saying that if you don't understand it, you shouldn't read it. Granted I didn't read the chapter so I don't know where he goes from there. But it sounds like he's more saying that if you're new and you're still dealing with the surface stuff so none of this has even occurred to you, it's not that important yet. Don't get overwhelmed and think you have to get all of this, just go at your own pace and answer the questions that are on your mind right now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382787889525110718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5080372433953859587.post-56122034290341549162012-02-15T11:34:08.336-05:002012-02-15T11:34:08.336-05:00Oh! That's why Blogger keeps eating my comment...Oh! That's why Blogger keeps eating my comments! I'm trying to comment on non-existent entries! :D Ok, now I'll go back and actually read this one and then write a new comment under this. <br /><br />(Also, I wouldn't say no one cares what you have to say because of that post. I still plan to do Bible posts, and reviews of Christian books. I try to do it respectfully and not judge them by what I believe, but I think I can still share my thoughts on them without stepping on toes.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382787889525110718noreply@blogger.com