One of the things I've struggled with in being Catholic is Confession. I never really *got it*. Possibly because I've never done anything that I really felt bad for? I mean I've done bad things, just like anyone else but I've never done anything REALLY bad that I felt bad about? If that makes sense.
Add to that the fact that I'm a fairly private person, about things that actually matter. My family, I think I've mentioned, is not the most open and sharing of peoples? We're loving, but there are things that we don't share. And I'm probably the worst of my family.
Which would be why they all think I was an angel growing up while my sister rightly earned the nickname Demon Spawn. I did a lot worse things than she did when we were growing up, I just never got caught and I know how to keep my mouth shut!
But I think I've finally got it. The Confession thing, I mean. Still not my favorite thing in the world, but it makes sense to me now.
I did a thing.
A BAD thing that I knew was bad and I did it anyway and it doesn't matter what it was, except that in the list of Ten Commandments kind of sins it's literally right on there in the Thou Shalt Not's. But I did it anyway and I felt sick about it immediately afterwards but it was already done and you can't go back in time and slap yourself before you do the stupid thing.
And sure, people have done far worse things in the history of the world, but this was...pretty bad. And high up on the list of things I swore I would never do because I'm not that kind of a person. But it happened and I just...there's no such thing as harmless flirting, okay? Flirting leads in a very specific direction and you should not be going that way with inappropriate people. But I can see now how people who probably don't even mean to do it wind up having affairs because it's a million tiny steps that don't seem bad on their own until you look back and you have wandered way, WAY, off the path you thought you were on.
I was sick about this the whole week, and I couldn't talk myself down from the knowledge that I had done something very wrong. So I got my butt in gear and did an examination of my conscience and hey, what do you know I had some other things that I felt I should bring up.
My parish holds confession on Saturday and it sounds ridiculous but I had to talk myself into going every step of the way. But I made it and I confessed and it was awkward and wonderful all at the same time.
I feel *better*.
I've done my penance and I have the Father's advice on what to do to help myself not fall down that path again. Maybe it seems silly to people, it probably does, it used to seem silly to me too but I don't feel sick about it any more. I don't think that what I did was right, or that I'm not culpable for my own actions but...I don't know how to explain it.
I got it off my chest, in an epic sort of way.
Confession seems so awkward to me. I've been feeling a pull to check out a Catholic church nearby and even thinking it might be a good fit for me. If I was ever going to be a Christian again, I think it would have to be as a Catholic. But I tend to decide that and only later remember things like confession. And monotheism. And social issues. Oh yeah. (And just the awkwardness of all the ritual things in mass I don't know how to do, but that's a whole other thing and I could probably get used to that especially if I had a friend to go with me at first.)
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of with you on not feeling bad about much. I'm not big on the whole concept of sin anymore. After being made to feel guilty basically for just existing most of my life, most of the things I was brought up to believe are sinful are just human to me and not something I feel the need to confess or apologize for.
So it takes a lot to make me feel guilty. But when I do, I do also find that it will gnaw at me until I address it. That doesn't have to be to another person. Most often it happens in prayer. But there's something about acknowledging the guilt, asking forgiveness, and sort of setting rules for absolving the guilt that helps a lot. I'm glad you were able to go to confession and that it helped you.
Not going to lie, it's a little awkward. But it helps that, at least in my church, you have the option of having the screen between you and the priest. So you walk into the confessional (which is the size of a large walk-in closet, not the cool old school ones you see in movies) and you can kneel right there and the priest never sees you or you can walk around the screen wall and sit facing the priest. Whichever you're more comfortable with.
DeleteI've generally been more comfortable with the screen between us. I guess in a small parish with one priest, the priest would likely be able to figure out who's talking even with the wall and the screen, but mine is rather large and there are three priests that rotate so I feel fairly secure in my anonymity. And even if I wasn't anonymous, the priest can't say anything about what I tell him anyway.
I'd think monotheism would be the biggest bar to Christianity, out of that whole list. It's kind of a thing. :) The rituals are really easy to learn, since it's the same every time. And I had to learn and no one ever looked at me weird when I messed something up. Everyone's pretty busy making sure they remember what they're doing. And once you learn the moves it's comforting to know that you know exactly what you're expected to do every single time. Also, people don't try to chat with me. Unlike in the Protestant churches I've visited. People are in the Catholic church to be in the Mass. Chatting happens after and I just skip that part. Trying to chat in Mass is pretty much the thing that gets you eyeballed.
I guess I can see the appeal of the chattiness of the Protestant groups, they're trying to make you feel welcome, etc. which is very nice but I'm not ready for that level of human interaction, most of the time. I need to get comfortable with my surroundings first. So I appreciate being able to scurry back into my hole like a timid woodland creature.
I would totally go with you if we didn't live in opposite parts of the country.
I have an underdeveloped sense of guilt. Or conscience, maybe. I've done things that I am aware are technically morally incorrect and (on occasion) maybe a little illegal. Okay, not 'a little' and not 'maybe' but...I plead kid? But I don't *feel* bad about doing those things. *shrug* I just won't do them again because blah, blah, society this is how it works and social contract with the rest of humanity also I don't particularly want to suffer the consequences if I did the thing and got caught. But none of that is because it's a wrong that I feel in my heart.
I did try just praying, before I went to confession. It wasn't making me feel better. Possibly it was a combination of the...severity of what I did and the fact that I couldn't talk it over with a friend or family. And knowing that when I walked out I did my penance but I was already forgiven. Though I guess that only works because I believe the priest has that capacity. And yes, having a concrete level of things to do about it definitely helped.
/end rambling reply
"Though I guess that only works because I believe the priest has that capacity."
DeleteYeah, that's probably an important thing. There's no intermediary in my theology, so going to another person just seems weird to me. Like if I did become a Catholic I would probably go to Confession (sometimes, if I remembered, if I was already in the neighborhood or could find another reason to be in the neighborhood) because it's something you're "supposed" to do. But I don't expect that it would mean much to me and I wouldn't be looking to a priest for forgiveness about something that has nothing to do with them. So I guess that kind of misses the point.
"I'd think monotheism would be the biggest bar to Christianity, out of that whole list. It's kind of a thing."
Heh. I feel like this could turn into another "what makes a Christian" conversation that doesn't get anywhere because really those definitions are personal. But I do know Catholic polytheists. And other Christian polytheists (it really just feeds naturally into Gnostic Christianity), but for some reason I've come across a *lot* of Catholic pagans.
I think that comes down to "God" being a sort of nebulous term in our culture and definitions in general being seen as subjective. And beliefs being seen as your own personal business. If someone understands God in a way that leaves room for multiple levels of divinity, for example, that opens up a lot.
One guy I used to know said that the rule is no gods *before* God. So he held other gods on a level under that, similar to angels and saints. Actually, I know a few people that way.
For me it's more that God isn't a personal being for me but the source of all life. We're all expressions of God because all the universe is to me is God creating out of itself (nothing can exist that isn't a part of God and that God isn't a part of). And the many religions and gods are attempts to explain something we can't actually understand. So they all have some truth in them but none are absolute in my mind. Giving a name (or many names) to the divine and trying to live in line with it lets us understand the core of the universe, I guess. We *make* it personal and then interacting with our idea of it helps us live more in tune with it.
That means for myself I could accept Christianity and be fine with even the parts that I think are totally wrong because I can understand them as human error. I can reword things in my mind and work through the theology so that the prayers and rituals make sense and don't exclude other religions and ideas. But to do that *as a member* having agreed to a list of beliefs that I don't actually hold and knowing that they probably don't think of "God" the same way I do...that gets ultra sketchy. So monotheism in itself isn't a problem for me really, it's the concern that my monotheism might not match theirs and I would feel like a liar.
"Yeah, that's probably an important thing. There's no intermediary in my theology, so going to another person just seems weird to me."
DeleteI wonder if it helps in a similar way to therapy, for people who don't necessarily believe that the priest can forgive sins? I'm certain that there are at least some Catholic's who don't quite believe the company line, as it were.
I don't...I mean if you were, hypothetically, Catholic, and you didn't believe that you needed to go to Confession for the whole forgiveness of sins thing, I don't really see why you would bother, though. It's not like anyone is keeping track of your confessional attendance. I have a friend whose mother converted and she hasn't been to confession since the one needed for her confirmation. She doesn't feel like she needs to go so she doesn't. If you're not going to get anything out of it, why bother?
"his could turn into another "what makes a Christian" conversation that doesn't get anywhere because really those definitions are personal. But I do know Catholic polytheists. And other Christian polytheists (it really just feeds naturally into Gnostic Christianity), but for some reason I've come across a *lot* of Catholic pagans."
Okay, yeah, this will devolve into one of those conversations, because no. You can't be two opposite things at the same time. You can't be a Muslim-Catholic. You can't be a polytheistic-Christian. That is what Muslims think of Trinitarian Christians and that's what everyone's always yelling about. Sure, there's the whole 'no other gods before me' which suggests that the early Jews believed that there were other gods they were just lesser, but Christianity has pretty firmly settled on monotheism, at least mainstream Christianity. I would not count those people who think they're polytheistic Christians as Christians. And we all know that mine is the only opinion that counts. :)
"For me it's more that God isn't a personal being for me but the source of all life. We're all expressions of God because all the universe is to me is God creating out of itself (nothing can exist that isn't a part of God and that God isn't a part of)."
Isn't that pantheism?
"That means for myself I could accept Christianity and be fine with even the parts that I think are totally wrong because I can understand them as human error. I can reword things in my mind and work through the theology so that the prayers and rituals make sense and don't exclude other religions and ideas."
But at a certain point don't the things that you understand as human error undermine the point of choosing that particular religion to the point where it's meaningless to say you belong to it? If you have to reinterpret most of the basic tenets, why bother claiming that particular religion at all?
"Isn't that pantheism?"
DeletePanentheism, but basically.
"But at a certain point don't the things that you understand as human error undermine the point of choosing that particular religion to the point where it's meaningless to say you belong to it? If you have to reinterpret most of the basic tenets, why bother claiming that particular religion at all?"
Because *nobody* gets it right, in my mind. We're all just trying our best to put something unexplainable into concrete terms. There will never be a religion that I will think has it right, the closest I could hope to find would be one that is a very good fit for me. I find Catholic liturgy very meaningful and useful in connecting to God. I love Mary. Looking at her imagery, reading about her appearances, praying the rosary are all very meaningful for me and pull at my heart. That means something, and I occasionally come back to wonder if it means I should give Catholicism a try. But I can't turn off my brain and accept all of it as literally and objectively true. That's a problem with any religion, so I have to keep weighing my thoughts and trying to understand which things are essential and which are more open.
I recently found a website belonging to someone who does religious education in her Catholic church. She's also a Buddhist, and her website is all about Mary. She talks about Mary and the Goddess, Mary and Kwan Yin, etc. The way she describes these things it seems clear she considers Mary a face of God. And it looks like this is all open, she uses her name and shows pictures of herself on the website, so apparently she has no concerns about the church finding out. These are ideas she is able to hold while still being active in the church. In New Mexico, the churches I visited mixed theology and myth from the Native American tribes in the area with Christianity. So it seems to me that there is room for disagreement and interpretation, but it's very important to me to respectfully find that line and not cross it.
Regarding Communion, if it's not actually necessary than I probably wouldn't. I might have the wrong idea. My understanding was that it is something you are supposed to do. Many rituals seem meaningless to me at first but have made sense once I committed to them. So if I was told I had to do it, that it was an essential part of being Catholic, I would at least give it a fair shot.
Has Christianity settled on monotheism? :D Protestants thing Catholics blur that line with the saints. From the outside, it seems clear to me that by the same argument anyone who believes in angels (which is every Christian I've met) are also blurring the line. I don't really see the difference in grouping beings that were understood in other cultures as gods in with angels. But that's the last I'll say on it. :)
"Because *nobody* gets it right, in my mind. We're all just trying our best to put something unexplainable into concrete terms. There will never be a religion that I will think has it right, the closest I could hope to find would be one that is a very good fit for me. I find Catholic liturgy very meaningful and useful in connecting to God. I love Mary. Looking at her imagery, reading about her appearances, praying the rosary are all very meaningful for me and pull at my heart. That means something, and I occasionally come back to wonder if it means I should give Catholicism a try."
DeleteI know we're coming at this from different perspectives. I do believe that there has to be a *right* answer. Whether or not I've come across it is occasionally up for debate, but I do find the whole *waves hands around* it's all good mentality doesn't sit right with me. But that's me. I can accept that other people have a different perspective and disagree with them anyway. So there we are.
Have you looked at Anglican or Episcopalian? I ask because the liturgy is generally very similar to Catholic Mass. Marian devotion, etc. I'm not sure how far they go into that, but I can't imagine that there would be a problem with it. The rosary, after all, is a personal devotion and not a sacrament or a necessity. Approved Marian apparitions, again, not sure how that would translate over.
I also throw those two out there because they seem to be a tad more...flexible? in belief. From what I've seen, anyway. I've not had any experience with them personally, obviously.
Because I honestly don't think you'd be happy, long run, with a Catholic church if your opinions stay where they are. Unless the one you attend is super crazy modern/liberal/what have you. There is always the difference between the letter of the law and the application of it, but I'm not sure you'd like having such a rigid set of rules and beliefs around you all the time. But I don't know, I'm not you and I probably don't even really know you well enough to make an educated guess.
"But I can't turn off my brain and accept all of it as literally and objectively true."
Not everything is meant to be literally true, even in Catholicism. But there are a set of dogmas that must be adhered to in order to actually *be* a Catholic. Or even if you don't believe in them, you don't speak against them and obey the church teaching. With the idea that eventually you'll come to realize that you were wrong the whole time. Which sounds ridiculous, but here I am having changed my mind to be in line with Church teaching on a couple of things.
This reply is getting long, going to have to break it up.
"website belonging to someone who does religious education in her Catholic church. She's also a Buddhist...She talks about Mary and the Goddess, Mary and Kwan Yin,...she considers Mary a face of God. And it looks like this is all open...she has no concerns about the church finding out."
DeleteNope. I would put money on the people who run her church's religious education program not knowing about her being a Buddhist, *especially* not her considering Mary to be a facet of God. Unless it's some crazy 'catholic' church that's not really a part of the Roman Catholic church. She might not be worried about the church finding out because it's not like there are teams of people trolling the internet, looking for Catholics being naughty. But this would be enough to get her removed from teaching in my parish.
"seems to me that there is room for disagreement and interpretation"
There is room for disagreement and interpretation, in certain aspects and areas. But there are a lot of very hard and fast rules.
"Regarding Communion, if it's not actually necessary than I probably wouldn't...My understanding was that it is something you are supposed to do."
Communion or Confession? Doesn't really matter, I guess. Because yes, you are supposed to do both. They're tied together and I'm not going to get into the long explanation about being in a state of grace in order to properly receive, etc. etc. because I know you know all of that. But here's the thing. No one is keeping track of these things.
It's all up to you and your conscience. What the Church teaches is that you should not receive Communion unworthily. That it's a detriment to yourself to do so. Which is part of why Catholic communion is closed.
A believing Catholic would examine themselves and determine whether or not they've done something they need to go to Confession for, prior to Communion. If so, they go, receive their penance and absolution, and can receive Communion until they feel they've taken themselves out of the proper state to receive. Depending on the person that might mean they go to Confession every week, month, etc. Everyone is different. The Church certainly recommends a certain frequency of Confession for a variety of reasons, but again, no one is keeping an attendance sheet.
No one is going to be able to look at you and turn you away from receiving Communion because they know you haven't been to Confession recently. That's on you.
In the same vein, there's no one there to make you go up and receive Communion. Plenty of people at every Mass remain in their pews when the time comes. They don't receive because they aren't properly disposed or they're not Catholic, or what have you. No one keeps a list of those people either.
The Church has rules, but your adherence to those is largely based on your faith and belief that the Church is correct and the rules should be obeyed.
But if you don't believe, why bother?
You could just go to the Mass, experience the liturgy, and then leave. Marion devotions, etc. are private practices and don't require you to interact with other members of the church necessarily. Unless you want to be an active member of the church to attend classes, or things that would necessitate being a Catholic in visibly good standing. That would require you to officially join the church, which is where you would run into the issues of belief.
I guess I just don't understand why you would put yourself through the whole process, and then proceed to essentially lie (because they do ask you to swear to belief in the doctrines and correctness of the church when you convert) in order to join a group that you don't actually believe in.
"Has Christianity settled on monotheism? :D"
Orthodox, main stream Christianity? Yes.
This is where having a solid, *base* definition of what makes someone a Christian comes in handy. :)
Oops, I did mean confession, not Communion. Not sure how I made that jump.
DeleteI think there might have been a miscommunication, because the things you say I could do without joining are mostly what I meant. I might want to attend classes and learn more, but I definitely wouldn't lie about beliefs to join the church. From my perspective, back when I identified as a Christian I went to a variety of churches and didn't join any of them, but they all offered something and I tried to be involved enough to give back to them. And when I started not identifying as a Christian, I kept going to those churches but was honest about that fact.
I made it through a big chunk of seminary not really believing in anything. That was pretty bad, because all of the assignments are about belief and trying to make sense of this book that wasn't mine and that I didn't really care about. It caused this really weird disconnect between who I was and what I thought and the work I was doing. Once I took some time to myself and started to develop my own beliefs, I could work with it more easily. I could acknowledge that it wasn't mine but that it still had things to teach me. That's how I view a lot of religion.
For a long time, I couldn't really approach Christianity at all. Everything reminded me of parts of my childhood religious education that now seem abusive and it caused a lot of anxiety at first, then anger. Now I've mostly moved beyond that and it's largely through a mix of liberal eclectic Christianity and Catholicism. More the latter than the former, oddly enough. I can deal with dogma. Within its own closed system, it's right. That's what religion is to me - you choose your myth and build your whole worldview and expectations for life around it. (Yes, UUs have a myth too. It's less clearly defined and tries to be open to as many people as possible, but we have our prophets and our concept of the world as moving towards justice.) I think God manifests in a variety of ways to speak to everyone. So in a Catholic service, I believe in that view of God. It's true, but it's not the only truth.
I've recently encountered a group of people who consider themselves Christian but focus their worship mostly on feminine aspects of God. That speaks to me and helped me come the rest of the way to accepting my Christian upbringing. I find I don't like the language and assumptions that ruled my early religion, but the ideas are good.
I don't know if that makes any more sense of my joining a church I don't really believe in. Short answer is that I'm not looking to join but that I feel enough of a pull to get more involved and learn about it.
I think somewhere along the line I read some line in one of your comments that made me think you were thinking about maybe becoming Catholic and we spiraled from there. Can't find the line at the moment, so it's probably just me reading into things that aren't there. It happens.
DeleteI've had to start spreading my jelly with a knife on my sandwiches because I misread a post by my mother and now I can't admit that I answered the entirely wrong question. :D
So I'm going to take the blame for this entire conversational spiral and call it good. :)
Rather timely to read this from you because I finished a book last night, and in it the guy goes to Confession for one of the 10 Thou Shalt Nots, too. I'm glad to hear about it from someone outside of a book, and I'm happy that it was helpful to you!
ReplyDelete" But I can see now how people who probably don't even mean to do it wind up having affairs because it's a million tiny steps that don't seem bad on their own until you look back and you have wandered way, WAY, off the path you thought you were on." -- good point
My timeliness is one of my underappreciated qualities. :)
DeleteI've always judged people a little harshly, who have affairs or do big bad things. I mean, how hard is it to just not do that? I don't think I ever really appreciated how much that one big thing is led up to and made up of so many little things that don't seem so bad on their own.
I enjoyed reading y'all's conversation!
ReplyDeleteAmber, that Jodi Picoult book you asked about on my May Books post was the one I referred to in my first comment here. :)