I know that there are some things that are intrinsically evil: murder, rape, theft. All of these have one thing in common: you are taking something from another person against their will.
Other things are only 'evil' because we believe that we have been told by our creator that they are evil. Or society seems them as an evil. But are they really bad? And if so, why? They don't meet the 'intrinsic' evil standard.
I'm thinking, very specifically, of suicide and assisted suicide. Not in the 'gee, I want to try this' manner, of course. There've been a couple of articles in the paper recently about a 91 year old woman out in...California, I think, who is in trouble for selling suicide kits. I think the actual charges have something to do with selling medical equipment without the proper licensing, but I can't recall and it's not actually important to the point.
I draw a line between people who are suicidal because of mental imbalance - they are not in control of their own faculties. This is different, to my mind, from those who are suffering from a terminal illness. The question I'm asking is, is it actually, inherently evil, bad, wrong, whatever you want to call it for someone who it in complete control, not on drugs, alcohol or suffering from mental issues to decide that they don't want to sit around and suffer for months or years until their body finally just stops being able to function?
And on a possibly related note, I noticed that Dr. Kevorkian died today, of natural causes.
Ah, I was wondering if you'd seen news of Dr. Kevorkian and thus the question, but it appears not.
ReplyDeleteI think if there is no God with rules for His creation then killing yourself for the reasons you stated is fine. I've heard people say it's a shame we can ease the suffering of animals by "putting them to sleep" yet we cannot do this for "one of our own."
So if there is no God, sure. It's your body, your life, end it if you want.
I would be tempted if I were suffering.
I think nearly all things are relative, even in the eyes of God. For example: stealing = bad. But what if you are a poor, starving mother and your children have some horrible disease and you know you can steal a cure for them. Would any of us not do it? And would God hold it against us? I think that's what you're getting at with your assisted suicide question anyway.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I disagree with your line between "mental imbalance" and terminal illness. There are mental illnesses that are long-term, very painful and often fatal. Why would suicide in these instances be any different from suicide when you were very painfully ill?
I would distinguish all that from the kind of suicidality that is a longing to be Home with God. Lots of religious people get this and I think that's the kind of suicide that God disapproves of-- because God put us here for a reason and we can't just go Home because we are tired.
St. Martin talked about this kind when he prayed, "Lord, if I am still necessary to your people, I won't refuse to live. Thy will be done."
Susanne,
ReplyDeleteWell, I did see the news, obviously. But I was it while I was typing up the post. :)
But even if there is a God, is it sinful to ease your suffering if that's the only thing left to you?
I actually thought of titling the post, 'they shoot horses, don't they?' but I thought that was a bit too light hearted!
Allie,
ReplyDeleteIsn't your example falling into the realm of if you do something bad for a good purpose, is it still bad?
I see what you're saying, about it being the same case with assisted suicide, but I don't view it the same. If the only thing wrong with killing a person is that you are taking their life against their will, it's no longer wrong if they want you to do it. Does that make sense?
As for the line between mental illness and terminal illness, I was thinking (in regards to mental illness) those which leave the person unable to make decisions rationally. It's a wavy, hard to define line and by no means do all mental illnesses leave those who have them unable to make rational choices.
Mmm...I know that religious people do sometimes long to be 'finished' and go to God, but do they really become suicidal? Since suicide is considered a sin in most major religions, wouldn't that stop them from considering it? I guess I'd think of them as being less 'suicidal' and more 'at peace' with the final end of their lives. Not trying to eek out one more year, etc. As in your quote, live, die, it's all the same to them because it's about what God wants.
I enjoy your philosophical questions and it's a shame you didn't name the post what you thought about naming it! Ha!
ReplyDelete"But even if there is a God, is it sinful to ease your suffering if that's the only thing left to you?"
It depends. i qualified it IF there were a God because if there is not, your body is yours as far as I'm concerned.
BUT, if there is a God and He created you, maybe you couldn't kill yourself because your body is not yours. You didn't create it (though you fairly or not are forced to live in it) so can you destroy it?
Plus God - according to most faiths - uses suffering for purposes. Maybe it's to draw us to himself, maybe it's to show like with Job that 'though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.' I've heard suffering is like a megaphone. it's easy to serve God when life is cheery and good and we are rich and in great health. But how wonderful is it as an example to others when we can still praise the Lord when our life is in shambles. When our health is awful. When everything has fallen apart. And we can still sing about our Great God?
THAT is amazing.
So killing myself might shortchange any benefit suffering might bring to myself and others. It's one of those things where we have to trust in the faithfulness of God and see if we truly believe He is love. Or if He is just a big ol' meanie who loves to hurt us.
Amber,
ReplyDeleteHm... maybe it's not the same as assisted suicide, but I'd argue that taking someone's life against their will is only *one* of the things wrong with murder. The other, is that you're destroying a creature of God. That would be the "crime" I'd worry about with assisted suicide... and then I think my analogy stands, assuming God has empathy the way people do... which is assuming a lot, actually.
Another thought: who's to say that someone isn't thinking rationally? You could argue that *anyone* who wanted to die was irrational. I think you either have to go with: it's their body/mind, if they don't want to live, they have that right OR they don't have that right, regardless.
And I don't know how the longing to be Home with God equates to the modern ideas of suicide, but I'd imagine in the religious people who are suicidal today, it may come out looking like wanting to go Home. It is a sin, so I imagine also that that would prevent them from completing suicide, but one can still be suicidal and not complete the action.
Susanne,
ReplyDeleteI was trying not to attract an angry mob or make people who have been affected by suicide upset. You know, trying to have some sort of humanity. A new concept for me, yes, but it's an experiment! :)
BUT, if there is a God and He created you, maybe you couldn't kill yourself because your body is not yours. You didn't create it (though you fairly or not are forced to live in it) so can you destroy it?
No, but I was given custody of it. It is more *mine* than it is any other created being. Maybe you know this - is there any direct mention/order that suicide is wrong in the Bible? Or is it just our interpretation that gives us this message? I'm thinking of the Maccabees here. They committed suicide rather than be captured (and killed/enslaved) by the Romans. I can't recall this ever being explicitly condemned. Neither, though, do I recall it being praised, exactly.
There is that, the concept that God uses suffering. But at some point, the suffering has to end. Who's to say that the end God plans for some people isn't met at their own hands? That's a stick proposition, and don't think I don't know it. But I put it out there.
There is also the thought that God uses our suffering to affect others. He uses the deaths of people in the same manner.
Allie,
ReplyDeleteI'd argue that taking someone's life against their will is only *one* of the things wrong with murder.
And even then, taking someones life against there will isn't even always wrong, i.e.: the death penalty or killing in self defense. Nothing is ever black and white. It makes life both interesting and frustrating. :)
The other, is that you're destroying a creature of God. That would be the "crime" I'd worry about with assisted suicide...
A good point. But, if it is a 'crime' to destroy a creature of God, how can God command people to impose the death penalty for certain sins in the OT?
Another thought: who's to say that someone isn't thinking rationally? You could argue that *anyone* who wanted to die was irrational. I think you either have to go with: it's their body/mind, if they don't want to live, they have that right OR they don't have that right, regardless.
I think society plays a large role in determining what is viewed as 'rational' and what is viewed as 'irrational'. But compulsive behaviors, things that one doesn't not want to do but cannot help but doing seem to be irrational. Seeing/hearing/smelling/experiencing things that are not real would seem to be irrational. Paranoia is irrational (for most people - there really aren't people out to get them). Self harm is typically seen as irrational, which is why I think there's such a stigma on suicide of any stripe, even for people who don't have any other symptoms (or have at all) of mental illness. That's leaving aside the remnants of Christian ideology in our culture.
one can still be suicidal and not complete the action.
Very true. But then I have the question: if suicide is a sin, is it the attitude, the desire that is the sin, or the action? Thinking back to the concept of those who have committed adultery in their hearts having committed it in truth.
I have to say I personally lean towards allowing people to make such a choice for themselves, also when it comes to ending their lives. Provided they are mentally able to do so at the time. To me it's no different than saying you don't want them to resuscitate you after surgery.
ReplyDeleteBtw, LOVED your original idea for title!
"Who's to say that the end God plans for some people isn't met at their own hands?"
ReplyDeleteI guess Samson could fall into that category. I've never seen any "You shall not self-murder" commandment in the Bible. Maybe it assumes people want to live as most people do whatever they can to survive. History is full of examples of people and nations and tribes who will steal, kill and do whatever it takes to not only survive but promote their own agendas and interests.
Of course there are a few people in the Bible who do kill themselves so it's not like that didn't exist. Hmmm.
You pose some good questions to ponder.
Becky,
ReplyDeleteThat's a good comparison, actually. Is there a difference between a DNR and a suicide, provided that the person is in their right mind to choose such an action.
Susanne,
ReplyDeleteI didn't think about Samson, but definitely he would fit. He didn't fall in battle or something like that. He deliberately and knowingly performed an action that he knew would lead to his death.