So maybe this isn't so weird, but I just found out the other day that my two desk mates don't believe in evolution.
Now, one of them is Catholic (I bugged her with so many questions when I was thinking about converting - she claims she gets 'convert points' for helping bring me in!) and the other is not, but she is a Christian.
And I just...assumed that everyone who wasn't some sort of 'weird' fundamentalist believed in evolution, but I was wrong and I am shocked.
Of course, the Church permits belief in evolution and belief in not-evolution, so it's fine, but I just...
It was a surprise.
And I've realized that I have assumed that evolution is true because I was told that evolution was true and that there was science that proved it but I don't know what that science is. Like, I'm not saying that I don't believe in evolution, just that I know that I don't even know enough about how it has been proven to make an attempt at arguing for it.
Showing posts with label religion. Show all posts
Showing posts with label religion. Show all posts
Monday, October 1, 2018
Wednesday, September 12, 2018
would you time travel to meet Jesus?
So, I don't remember how, but my dad and I were talking about time travel the other day. And again, I don't remember how we got on this, but we were talking about it and he says that he wouldn't ever want to go back in time to meet Jesus.
And I'm not going to say that's not a good idea, because time travel seems problematic for so many, many reasons, but I found *his* vehemence on this point sort of puzzling.
Like, I won't be time traveling to meet anyone, ever. I wouldn't ever specifically point out Jesus as someone I wouldn't want to go see. So I asked why, and his vaguely worded answer was that he was worried he'd be disappointed.
I mean, fair, we're used to certain standards of living that were not possible in the ancient world.
Like A/C and cars and modern hygiene and medicines. To name some that I am personally concerned about.
But disappointed?
I mean...
Okay.
You basically have two choices.
One, you go back and Jesus is a revolutionary, but not how you imagine Him in your head. There's no way to 'prove' divinity even if you go meet Him. After all, we can rationalize anything and faith is believing in things even when you can't see them.
Two, you go back and Jesus is how you imagine Him. But you're still going on faith that He is God, since, see above.
So why single out Jesus, unless you're concerned that seeing Him as a physical, human person will somehow hurt your faith.
And I'm not going to say that's not a good idea, because time travel seems problematic for so many, many reasons, but I found *his* vehemence on this point sort of puzzling.
Like, I won't be time traveling to meet anyone, ever. I wouldn't ever specifically point out Jesus as someone I wouldn't want to go see. So I asked why, and his vaguely worded answer was that he was worried he'd be disappointed.
I mean, fair, we're used to certain standards of living that were not possible in the ancient world.
Like A/C and cars and modern hygiene and medicines. To name some that I am personally concerned about.
But disappointed?
I mean...
Okay.
You basically have two choices.
One, you go back and Jesus is a revolutionary, but not how you imagine Him in your head. There's no way to 'prove' divinity even if you go meet Him. After all, we can rationalize anything and faith is believing in things even when you can't see them.
Two, you go back and Jesus is how you imagine Him. But you're still going on faith that He is God, since, see above.
So why single out Jesus, unless you're concerned that seeing Him as a physical, human person will somehow hurt your faith.
Monday, January 16, 2017
Rambling + Wrong Things Being Wrong
I have edited this post three or four times. I start on it, then get distracted and then I come back and have to update All the Things. So if something makes no sense? Go me.
So a while back I said I wanted to do a post about inherent evils. I may have used the word intrinsic, but I think that's the wrong term now.
A lot of things have happened since then, work is always interesting and my sister isactually getting married in less than a month married. Much luck to her husband, he knew what he was getting into. I'm the maid of honor...matron of honor? Not sure what the right term is, actually. I'm unmarried (clearly), but not properly a 'maid'. *shrug* Whatever. I'm busy killing myself walking around breaking in cowboy boots because apparently my sister is a red neck of the highest caliber.
Let me tell you how miffed I was that I had to buy not one, but TWO pairs of boots because my sister approved the first pair of boots and then blamed her husband and said that they had to be BLACK boots because of reasons. *rolls eyes* And then I break in a second pair of boots and SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET ANY PICTURES OF THE BOOTS I COULD HAVE BEEN WEARING NORMAL SHOES LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOWN.
I took those boots off so fast.
So. Fast.
I just keep telling myself its her wedding, and she's hardly a bridezilla. And I've told her she only gets the one. I also told her fiancee husband he can't give her back. But seriously, he seems like a good guy and he's a cop, which, the irony is thick here. My sister is studying to be a nurse and he's a cop - I look the most like my maternal grandmother out of the rest of the family and we may...have had certain personality traits in common? Seeing as how we are both always right. ;) But my sister is literally recreating my grandparents' marriage, since my grandmother was a nurse and my grandfather was a cop.
Aaaaanyyywayyyy....
There was also the election.
Which is a thing that happened. I don't really talk about politics, and I'm not planning on changing that now.
Moving on.
My boss, who is a great man, has been diagnosed with a brain tumor. It's not the treatable kind and I don't know if it's worse to know that you're going to die, here's a timeline or to know that you're not going to be yourself before the end.
*sigh*
Okay.
Inherent/intrinsic evil.
I listen to a podcast called Catholic Answers Focus. It's related to the Catholic Answers radio show, which I also listen to, surprise surprise. It's more of a one on one interview kind of a thing. Back in August (OMG that was so long ago) they had an episode titled Natural Law and Civil Law. Which was an interesting listen.
While I was listening, I had a minor epiphany?
So, incest. We can all generally agree that it is terrible and wrong and should not happen. But is it because it is typically an abusive situation or is it because there is something so wrong with the act/concept itself that even if it happens in a 'healthy' way it is still evil?
I was thinking through it in my head, sort of like this.
Incest is wrong because
1) it is an abusive relationship. If it is between an older family member and a younger there is an inherent power differential and the pedophilia aspect just makes it that much worse. If it is between relatives of a more similar age, there is still typically a power imbalance where one party is manipulating or controlling the other due to a variety of factors;
2) step back and say that it is a relationship that is not abusive in that way. There are two people, related, who meet and decide to begin a romantic/sexual relationship. They've never met one another before this, they didn't grow up together, etc. There's no possibility of it being a situation like in the first step. Is it sill wrong?
Yes. But why?
My first thought was because they could possibly have children and those children's probability of being born with significant birth defects is higher than those of people suitably distantly related. I know it doesn't happen in every instance, and that inbreeding can take a long time of repeated occurrences to cause the worst sorts on a regular basis, but it's still an unnecessary risk factor to add to an already risky proposition.
So, 3) take it back another step and say that they will not have children. Better yet, they cannot. For whatever reason.
Is it still wrong?
My brain says yes.
But why?
I suppose one could argue that even a scenario such as this serves to normalize the incestuous relationship, thus perhaps making it an nth more likely that someone will abuse another member of their family in the way detailed in the first step. But that seems a stretch to me, and honestly, if someone is that wrongly wired, they're going to do it no matter what justifications they have to make to themselves.
Still wrong?
Yes.
Why?
It just is. It's just wrong. At it's core, there is something wrong with the concept, let along the act itself that sets people's teeth on edge.
And yes, I am aware that incest has been practiced in other, ancient cultures. Doesn't make it less wrong. People have done a whole lot of things, collectively and individually and made themselves believe that it was okay. That never made these things actually okay.
Some things are wrong and no argument or justification can be made to change that.
So a while back I said I wanted to do a post about inherent evils. I may have used the word intrinsic, but I think that's the wrong term now.
A lot of things have happened since then, work is always interesting and my sister is
Let me tell you how miffed I was that I had to buy not one, but TWO pairs of boots because my sister approved the first pair of boots and then blamed her husband and said that they had to be BLACK boots because of reasons. *rolls eyes* And then I break in a second pair of boots and SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET ANY PICTURES OF THE BOOTS I COULD HAVE BEEN WEARING NORMAL SHOES LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOWN.
I took those boots off so fast.
So. Fast.
Aaaaanyyywayyyy....
There was also the election.
Which is a thing that happened. I don't really talk about politics, and I'm not planning on changing that now.
Moving on.
My boss, who is a great man, has been diagnosed with a brain tumor. It's not the treatable kind and I don't know if it's worse to know that you're going to die, here's a timeline or to know that you're not going to be yourself before the end.
*sigh*
Okay.
Inherent/intrinsic evil.
I listen to a podcast called Catholic Answers Focus. It's related to the Catholic Answers radio show, which I also listen to, surprise surprise. It's more of a one on one interview kind of a thing. Back in August (OMG that was so long ago) they had an episode titled Natural Law and Civil Law. Which was an interesting listen.
While I was listening, I had a minor epiphany?
So, incest. We can all generally agree that it is terrible and wrong and should not happen. But is it because it is typically an abusive situation or is it because there is something so wrong with the act/concept itself that even if it happens in a 'healthy' way it is still evil?
I was thinking through it in my head, sort of like this.
Incest is wrong because
1) it is an abusive relationship. If it is between an older family member and a younger there is an inherent power differential and the pedophilia aspect just makes it that much worse. If it is between relatives of a more similar age, there is still typically a power imbalance where one party is manipulating or controlling the other due to a variety of factors;
2) step back and say that it is a relationship that is not abusive in that way. There are two people, related, who meet and decide to begin a romantic/sexual relationship. They've never met one another before this, they didn't grow up together, etc. There's no possibility of it being a situation like in the first step. Is it sill wrong?
Yes. But why?
My first thought was because they could possibly have children and those children's probability of being born with significant birth defects is higher than those of people suitably distantly related. I know it doesn't happen in every instance, and that inbreeding can take a long time of repeated occurrences to cause the worst sorts on a regular basis, but it's still an unnecessary risk factor to add to an already risky proposition.
So, 3) take it back another step and say that they will not have children. Better yet, they cannot. For whatever reason.
Is it still wrong?
My brain says yes.
But why?
I suppose one could argue that even a scenario such as this serves to normalize the incestuous relationship, thus perhaps making it an nth more likely that someone will abuse another member of their family in the way detailed in the first step. But that seems a stretch to me, and honestly, if someone is that wrongly wired, they're going to do it no matter what justifications they have to make to themselves.
Still wrong?
Yes.
Why?
It just is. It's just wrong. At it's core, there is something wrong with the concept, let along the act itself that sets people's teeth on edge.
And yes, I am aware that incest has been practiced in other, ancient cultures. Doesn't make it less wrong. People have done a whole lot of things, collectively and individually and made themselves believe that it was okay. That never made these things actually okay.
Some things are wrong and no argument or justification can be made to change that.
Monday, June 6, 2016
Podcasts Have Eaten My Life But That's Okay
I think I've mentioned before that I've become obsessed with podcasts. I listen to mostly non-fiction, but there's a couple of fictionals in there too.
One of the ones that I listen to is a Bible study done by an Orthodox presvytera and Biblical studies professor, Jeannie Constantineau (also, I just googled her to spell the name right and I'd never seen a picture of her before - she's adorable, what is my life). Admittedly I only started listening to her podcast because I couldn't find a Catholic Bible study. Orthodoxy is close, in some ways, as we all know, but very different in others. Still, I think I made an excellent choice. She's very easy to listen to and she occasionally goes off on the passionate tangents that I enjoy. And her love of St. John Chrysostom is kind of a beautiful thing.
A while back, the Bible study was still in Genesis and this was actually different podcast episodes, but the same point was brought up. Maybe it's because that's where my brain was already at the moment, but it struck me as something I'd never gotten out of the particular stories before.
They were lessons about the expulsion from the Garden and Cain and Abel. So for the first, we're talking about Genesis 3: 1-24. The relevant part is where God asks Adam and Eve where they are, why they're hiding, etc. Dr. Constantineau points out that God was giving them a chance to confess to what they'd done. It's not as though He didn't know exactly what had happened, all knowing, etc. etc. but that He was giving them the opportunity to confess and ask for forgiveness.
Then, after Cain murders Abel, God comes along and asks him where his brother is. Genesis 4: 1-16. Again, God knows what's happened, but He's giving Cain the chance to come clean, as it were. He'd still have been a murderer, but he'd have been a repentant one, as opposed to one who was sorry and scared because he got caught. Also, did you ever notice that it was a premeditated murder?
I guess I always thought that it was a moment of passion kind of thing, but then I was reading the passage again and no, Cain lured Abel out to the field where they would be alone. Where he might have a chance of not getting caught.
And this has been your random observations from out of nowhere for the evening.
And now, a list of the podcasts that I listen to, because I can!
Fiction:
Alice Isn't Dead
The Black Tapes
The No Sleep Podcast
Tanis
Welcome to Nightvale (this was my gateway drug)
Non-Fiction:
Catholic Answers Focus
Catholic Answers Live (technically not a podcast as it's the recorded radio show, but I listen to it on my podcast app and therefore I count it. Because I can.)
Crime Writers On... (very fun. This started out as a Serial following podcast, but has branched out)
Criminal
EWTN
Finding the Freedom to Live
The Generation Why Podcast
Lore
Missing Maura Murray
Orthodoxy and Bioethics
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
Paranormal Podcast
Real Ghost Stories Online
SCARED? Real Ghost Stories
Search the Scriptures (above mentioned Bible study)
Serial
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books (the podcast of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books website.
Sword and Scale
Task & Purpose Radio
Truth & Justice with Bob Ruff
Undisclosed
Wow, I didn't realize the scales were weighted quite so heavily to the non-fiction side of things. Kind of the opposite of my reading habits, actually.
One of the ones that I listen to is a Bible study done by an Orthodox presvytera and Biblical studies professor, Jeannie Constantineau (also, I just googled her to spell the name right and I'd never seen a picture of her before - she's adorable, what is my life). Admittedly I only started listening to her podcast because I couldn't find a Catholic Bible study. Orthodoxy is close, in some ways, as we all know, but very different in others. Still, I think I made an excellent choice. She's very easy to listen to and she occasionally goes off on the passionate tangents that I enjoy. And her love of St. John Chrysostom is kind of a beautiful thing.
A while back, the Bible study was still in Genesis and this was actually different podcast episodes, but the same point was brought up. Maybe it's because that's where my brain was already at the moment, but it struck me as something I'd never gotten out of the particular stories before.
They were lessons about the expulsion from the Garden and Cain and Abel. So for the first, we're talking about Genesis 3: 1-24. The relevant part is where God asks Adam and Eve where they are, why they're hiding, etc. Dr. Constantineau points out that God was giving them a chance to confess to what they'd done. It's not as though He didn't know exactly what had happened, all knowing, etc. etc. but that He was giving them the opportunity to confess and ask for forgiveness.
Then, after Cain murders Abel, God comes along and asks him where his brother is. Genesis 4: 1-16. Again, God knows what's happened, but He's giving Cain the chance to come clean, as it were. He'd still have been a murderer, but he'd have been a repentant one, as opposed to one who was sorry and scared because he got caught. Also, did you ever notice that it was a premeditated murder?
I guess I always thought that it was a moment of passion kind of thing, but then I was reading the passage again and no, Cain lured Abel out to the field where they would be alone. Where he might have a chance of not getting caught.
And this has been your random observations from out of nowhere for the evening.
And now, a list of the podcasts that I listen to, because I can!
Fiction:
Alice Isn't Dead
The Black Tapes
The No Sleep Podcast
Tanis
Welcome to Nightvale (this was my gateway drug)
Non-Fiction:
Catholic Answers Focus
Catholic Answers Live (technically not a podcast as it's the recorded radio show, but I listen to it on my podcast app and therefore I count it. Because I can.)
Crime Writers On... (very fun. This started out as a Serial following podcast, but has branched out)
Criminal
EWTN
Finding the Freedom to Live
The Generation Why Podcast
Lore
Missing Maura Murray
Orthodoxy and Bioethics
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
Paranormal Podcast
Real Ghost Stories Online
SCARED? Real Ghost Stories
Search the Scriptures (above mentioned Bible study)
Serial
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books (the podcast of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books website.
Sword and Scale
Task & Purpose Radio
Truth & Justice with Bob Ruff
Undisclosed
Wow, I didn't realize the scales were weighted quite so heavily to the non-fiction side of things. Kind of the opposite of my reading habits, actually.
Wednesday, February 10, 2016
It's Lent!
Or, well, Ash Wednesday.
Which counts.
One of the guys who works the press here knows that I'm Catholic - we're not close enough for me to talk about the ups and downs thereof with him, so it's simpler to just say 'Catholic' because it's still true? Technically.
Anyway. When he came up for a replacement plate this afternoon he asked me where my ashes were. He, being a pressman, had his smeared on his forehead, where they were almost indistinguishable from the ink on him. The press is a messy, messy place. I think they might roll in it sometimes. I don't know why. Pressmen are weird.
Nice, but weird.
I told him that I'd wiped them off.
Which...is true. I hauled my butt out of bed at an ungodly hour, especially considering I worked nights last night, and went to the 7:30 Mass.
Because I miss it.
And that's kind of weird, right?
Right. It's weird.
But true.
I miss going to Mass and just generally....being Catholic. This is rather a new feeling, but maybe I shouldn't be all that surprised.
After all, I went to confession before I flew up to visit Heather last year. Just in case the plane crashed. That way I was covered, in the event of my death.
Which maybe sounds silly to people, I'm sure. But I felt better.
And I feel better having gone to Mass and gotten my ashes (even though I washed them off because I have a twitch, okay?) and doing my fast like a good Catholic girl. Or as close as I can come to it.
I've been here before, though, and burnt myself out right after conversion. So I'm easing back into it, testing the waters so to speak.
Some things still don't make sense, but at least at the moment I feel like maybe that doesn't matter so much.
In the mean time, I've become obsessed with podcasts (seriously, it's good that I've never done drugs, my personality tends towards the 'WOW, THAT WAS AWESOME!!!! LET'S DO IT AGAIN UNTIL WE PUKE!!!!') and the musical Hamilton. I'm at the point where I could listen to the original cast recording on repeat for forever.
This too, shall pass.
Though the Hannibal obsession hasn't yet, but that's a different problem.
Which counts.
One of the guys who works the press here knows that I'm Catholic - we're not close enough for me to talk about the ups and downs thereof with him, so it's simpler to just say 'Catholic' because it's still true? Technically.
Anyway. When he came up for a replacement plate this afternoon he asked me where my ashes were. He, being a pressman, had his smeared on his forehead, where they were almost indistinguishable from the ink on him. The press is a messy, messy place. I think they might roll in it sometimes. I don't know why. Pressmen are weird.
Nice, but weird.
I told him that I'd wiped them off.
Which...is true. I hauled my butt out of bed at an ungodly hour, especially considering I worked nights last night, and went to the 7:30 Mass.
Because I miss it.
And that's kind of weird, right?
Right. It's weird.
But true.
I miss going to Mass and just generally....being Catholic. This is rather a new feeling, but maybe I shouldn't be all that surprised.
After all, I went to confession before I flew up to visit Heather last year. Just in case the plane crashed. That way I was covered, in the event of my death.
Which maybe sounds silly to people, I'm sure. But I felt better.
And I feel better having gone to Mass and gotten my ashes (even though I washed them off because I have a twitch, okay?) and doing my fast like a good Catholic girl. Or as close as I can come to it.
I've been here before, though, and burnt myself out right after conversion. So I'm easing back into it, testing the waters so to speak.
Some things still don't make sense, but at least at the moment I feel like maybe that doesn't matter so much.
In the mean time, I've become obsessed with podcasts (seriously, it's good that I've never done drugs, my personality tends towards the 'WOW, THAT WAS AWESOME!!!! LET'S DO IT AGAIN UNTIL WE PUKE!!!!') and the musical Hamilton. I'm at the point where I could listen to the original cast recording on repeat for forever.
This too, shall pass.
Though the Hannibal obsession hasn't yet, but that's a different problem.
Sunday, January 10, 2016
So what is the basic definition of Christian, then?
Have you ever tried to have a really awkward conversation in a public place?
I do this on a semi-regular basis.
My friend Donna was raised on an Indian reservation in the mountains of New York. And, mind you, she is older. So all in all she comes from a rather different world. Sometimes things that are understood to be impolitic for general conversation don't strike her the same way.
And it's hard, on occasion, to convince her that maybe we should talk about these things at a later time. When we're not in a crowded theater waiting for a movie to start, for example.
Which is how I wind up trying to explain things quietly.
Today it was about Christianity.
Mind you, Donna was raised Episcopalian. She considers herself to be a Christian, though her education in such was basically - 'this is what we are, we do ABC'. *shrug*
The conversation started with her asking me what a Christian was. And I'm pretty sure that we've had a conversation about this before...actually I know that we have. There was a very long, late night discussion over why a person who believes that Jesus was the literal son of God (in the Greek/Roman gods sort of definition) couldn't be a Christian. The Trinity featured heavily in that one.
She was asking, this time, because of a plaque that she bought for decorating her apartment. When I was over there the other night we were talking about design ideas and she was showing me her fathers' fencing foils. Donna planned to mount them on her wall and I suggested that she get a family crest kind of thing to go beneath them to help complete the look.
Donna took my suggestion and found a coat of arms online that she purchased. It is, from her description, one that has a lion and a lamb on either side of a cross, with the banner reading 'Christian' over top. She bought that one because she is a Christian and while some of her family does originally come from England, they certainly don't have an actual familial coat of arms or crest. She was happy with her purchase until she saw an news story about the son of a gay couple who was denied access to a private school because his fathers are gay.
She was very upset that the school denied this boy due to the fact that the school was 'Christian' and she wanted to know if it was an actual Christian stance that homosexual couples are forbidden. Because if it was, she was going to have to un-declare herself a Christian.
Happily I could tell her that while it is the stance of a certain section of the Christian population there are plenty Christians who do not hold to this belief and so she can continue to be Christian without compromising her belief in marriage equality.
However, I'd have been even happier if we could have had this conversation almost literally anywhere else.
That, of course, is not the actual point. Just a side-note of 'my God, she's lucky I love her' kind of friendship angst. :)
Donna wanted to know what the definition of a Christian was, as I said before. And while I think we cleared up the actual heart of the issue, she still wanted to know what the definition actually was.
I told her the most basic definition is that of a 'follower of Christ', but that for the most part people accept as the base level of faith that a Christian is a person who believes that Christ was God (in some way) and that he was incarnated and sacrificed to expiate the sins of all of humanity.
Which, to me, is the most basic definition. I mean, okay, I know that there are a lot of different forms of Christianity and I'm sure somewhere out there there is a branch that doesn't believe some aspect of what I just said. But, honestly, to me? If you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus then...then you're not a Christian. You're not a bad person, by any means, and hey, call yourself what you like, but you don't meet the definition of Christian that I understand.
Mind you, I don't meet that definition of Christian, so throwing no stones here.
The conversation did make me wonder though, what is the most basic belief that a person would have to espouse in order to meet your definition of Christian?
I do this on a semi-regular basis.
My friend Donna was raised on an Indian reservation in the mountains of New York. And, mind you, she is older. So all in all she comes from a rather different world. Sometimes things that are understood to be impolitic for general conversation don't strike her the same way.
And it's hard, on occasion, to convince her that maybe we should talk about these things at a later time. When we're not in a crowded theater waiting for a movie to start, for example.
Which is how I wind up trying to explain things quietly.
Today it was about Christianity.
Mind you, Donna was raised Episcopalian. She considers herself to be a Christian, though her education in such was basically - 'this is what we are, we do ABC'. *shrug*
The conversation started with her asking me what a Christian was. And I'm pretty sure that we've had a conversation about this before...actually I know that we have. There was a very long, late night discussion over why a person who believes that Jesus was the literal son of God (in the Greek/Roman gods sort of definition) couldn't be a Christian. The Trinity featured heavily in that one.
She was asking, this time, because of a plaque that she bought for decorating her apartment. When I was over there the other night we were talking about design ideas and she was showing me her fathers' fencing foils. Donna planned to mount them on her wall and I suggested that she get a family crest kind of thing to go beneath them to help complete the look.
Donna took my suggestion and found a coat of arms online that she purchased. It is, from her description, one that has a lion and a lamb on either side of a cross, with the banner reading 'Christian' over top. She bought that one because she is a Christian and while some of her family does originally come from England, they certainly don't have an actual familial coat of arms or crest. She was happy with her purchase until she saw an news story about the son of a gay couple who was denied access to a private school because his fathers are gay.
She was very upset that the school denied this boy due to the fact that the school was 'Christian' and she wanted to know if it was an actual Christian stance that homosexual couples are forbidden. Because if it was, she was going to have to un-declare herself a Christian.
Happily I could tell her that while it is the stance of a certain section of the Christian population there are plenty Christians who do not hold to this belief and so she can continue to be Christian without compromising her belief in marriage equality.
However, I'd have been even happier if we could have had this conversation almost literally anywhere else.
That, of course, is not the actual point. Just a side-note of 'my God, she's lucky I love her' kind of friendship angst. :)
Donna wanted to know what the definition of a Christian was, as I said before. And while I think we cleared up the actual heart of the issue, she still wanted to know what the definition actually was.
I told her the most basic definition is that of a 'follower of Christ', but that for the most part people accept as the base level of faith that a Christian is a person who believes that Christ was God (in some way) and that he was incarnated and sacrificed to expiate the sins of all of humanity.
Which, to me, is the most basic definition. I mean, okay, I know that there are a lot of different forms of Christianity and I'm sure somewhere out there there is a branch that doesn't believe some aspect of what I just said. But, honestly, to me? If you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus then...then you're not a Christian. You're not a bad person, by any means, and hey, call yourself what you like, but you don't meet the definition of Christian that I understand.
Mind you, I don't meet that definition of Christian, so throwing no stones here.
The conversation did make me wonder though, what is the most basic belief that a person would have to espouse in order to meet your definition of Christian?
Wednesday, December 23, 2015
I don't always post, but when I do it's randomly and about religion
I don't know if you all remember, but my Dad and I don't discuss religion. Mostly because he lacks the ability to have a conversation about religion and not let it get personal.
Or so it's gone in the past.
However, the other night over dinner we managed to have a conversation without anyone getting their feelings hurt.
It started out as a discussion about Mother Theresa being named a Saint. Oddly, my Dad was raised Catholic but his parents had a problem with the church and left to become Mennonites-lite. So he doesn't know a whole lot about the Catholic church or what they believe since he missed out on CCD classes and actually participating in the life of the church.
So we went over how Catholic Saints are recognized and why people pray 'to' the Saints. Somehow though we segued into a theological discussion about the nature of God.
To preface, my parents are both currently non-denominational Christians. And in my opinion their understanding of Christian theology is less comprehensive than it should be. But that's fine, not everyone enjoys theology and arguing about things that can never be proven or disproven.
I know, I don't get it either. What better fun is there?
Still, they read the Bible and they *believe*, even if trying to pin them down on certain positions is like herding cats. You get nowhere but frustrated super fast.
Back to the conversation. In the discussion about how Saints are people who are recognized by the church as being in Heaven, not *created* by the Catholic church, we wound up talking about the omni's of God. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.
My Dad has no problem with the all powerful, being *everywhere* parts of this. His wrinkle comes at the all knowingness.
His stance is that he thinks God can set something into motion but not know how it's going to turn out. That otherwise God might get 'bored' with knowing everything. Which is…not a sustainable theological perspective in the Christian faith, as far as I know. I did tell him to ask his pastor because presumably the man has had more theological training than, say, me who has had none. I doubt he'll ask though.
My argument against his theological opinion basically runs as follows:
1. Christians accept the Bible as the inspired word of God. God, via angels for the most part, spoke on occasion to people directly but other than that He gave people the information that He wanted to get out and let them write it in their own fashion.
2. Even though it is inspired and therefore there are different writing styles, etc., the Christian belief is based on the fact that God would not allow the important parts to get messed up. So anything that God causes to be said about Himself must be what God meant to have said about Him.
3. God says, in several places, that He knows everything. There are references through the Old Testament and the New. So God knows everything, according to the Bible.
4. God also says that lying is a sin. That's pretty much up near the front, starts in the whole Ten Commandments thing.
5. Therefore, if God says that He is all-knowing, but is not actually all-knowing, then you have two options. Either the Bible can't be trusted to be accurate on what is said of God - and therefore the whole thing must be called into question - because there was no divine editorial board, or God lied about being all-knowing. And if God lied about being all-knowing, then God has sinned. And God cannot sin and be a *good* God.
This is all, of course, assuming Christianity, which assumes Judaism as the base.
Pagans don't, as far as I know, expect 100% honesty from the gods, depending on which god they happen to be dealing with. But I could be wrong. Paganism, aside from a brief foray into the beliefs of my ancestors, is not really a thing for me. There's a lot about it I don't know.
Not really sure how Muslims would feel about the whole thing. I still have trouble with the whole belief that God caused the people to believe that they were killing Jesus but really it was someone else. It still feels a lot like lying to me. Which doesn't sit with the concept of a good God.
Anyway.
I don't know, maybe there's some deeper theological theory that I'm unaware of that makes it possible for God to set something up where He doesn't know the outcome, but it doesn't feel right. It doesn't mesh with my understanding of theology and divinity as a whole.
Another question he had that came out of this was why would God bother to create humanity if He knew that we would screw it up in about the first five seconds.
I told him that most(many?) people believe that God created out of Love. Almost like a function of being Himself. He didn't create out of boredom or loneliness or a desire to see what would happen, but because the purest expression of the Love that He has was to create …. everything and humanity as well. Even knowing that people were going to muck it up.
What do you all think?
Or so it's gone in the past.
However, the other night over dinner we managed to have a conversation without anyone getting their feelings hurt.
It started out as a discussion about Mother Theresa being named a Saint. Oddly, my Dad was raised Catholic but his parents had a problem with the church and left to become Mennonites-lite. So he doesn't know a whole lot about the Catholic church or what they believe since he missed out on CCD classes and actually participating in the life of the church.
So we went over how Catholic Saints are recognized and why people pray 'to' the Saints. Somehow though we segued into a theological discussion about the nature of God.
To preface, my parents are both currently non-denominational Christians. And in my opinion their understanding of Christian theology is less comprehensive than it should be. But that's fine, not everyone enjoys theology and arguing about things that can never be proven or disproven.
I know, I don't get it either. What better fun is there?
Still, they read the Bible and they *believe*, even if trying to pin them down on certain positions is like herding cats. You get nowhere but frustrated super fast.
Back to the conversation. In the discussion about how Saints are people who are recognized by the church as being in Heaven, not *created* by the Catholic church, we wound up talking about the omni's of God. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.
My Dad has no problem with the all powerful, being *everywhere* parts of this. His wrinkle comes at the all knowingness.
His stance is that he thinks God can set something into motion but not know how it's going to turn out. That otherwise God might get 'bored' with knowing everything. Which is…not a sustainable theological perspective in the Christian faith, as far as I know. I did tell him to ask his pastor because presumably the man has had more theological training than, say, me who has had none. I doubt he'll ask though.
My argument against his theological opinion basically runs as follows:
1. Christians accept the Bible as the inspired word of God. God, via angels for the most part, spoke on occasion to people directly but other than that He gave people the information that He wanted to get out and let them write it in their own fashion.
2. Even though it is inspired and therefore there are different writing styles, etc., the Christian belief is based on the fact that God would not allow the important parts to get messed up. So anything that God causes to be said about Himself must be what God meant to have said about Him.
3. God says, in several places, that He knows everything. There are references through the Old Testament and the New. So God knows everything, according to the Bible.
4. God also says that lying is a sin. That's pretty much up near the front, starts in the whole Ten Commandments thing.
5. Therefore, if God says that He is all-knowing, but is not actually all-knowing, then you have two options. Either the Bible can't be trusted to be accurate on what is said of God - and therefore the whole thing must be called into question - because there was no divine editorial board, or God lied about being all-knowing. And if God lied about being all-knowing, then God has sinned. And God cannot sin and be a *good* God.
This is all, of course, assuming Christianity, which assumes Judaism as the base.
Pagans don't, as far as I know, expect 100% honesty from the gods, depending on which god they happen to be dealing with. But I could be wrong. Paganism, aside from a brief foray into the beliefs of my ancestors, is not really a thing for me. There's a lot about it I don't know.
Not really sure how Muslims would feel about the whole thing. I still have trouble with the whole belief that God caused the people to believe that they were killing Jesus but really it was someone else. It still feels a lot like lying to me. Which doesn't sit with the concept of a good God.
Anyway.
I don't know, maybe there's some deeper theological theory that I'm unaware of that makes it possible for God to set something up where He doesn't know the outcome, but it doesn't feel right. It doesn't mesh with my understanding of theology and divinity as a whole.
Another question he had that came out of this was why would God bother to create humanity if He knew that we would screw it up in about the first five seconds.
I told him that most(many?) people believe that God created out of Love. Almost like a function of being Himself. He didn't create out of boredom or loneliness or a desire to see what would happen, but because the purest expression of the Love that He has was to create …. everything and humanity as well. Even knowing that people were going to muck it up.
What do you all think?
Tuesday, September 8, 2015
No but really...
I'm going to a new doctor, after my last one told me that 'some people are just fat' and couldn't come up with any helpful ideas to help me keep losing weight. Which is an issue, okay? I feel like that is not the appropriate answer to someone who needs to lose weight and is looking for ways to supplement diet and exercise.
Anyway. There's always the first little interview, with the nurse, where they ask about family background, etc. and while I can give the information for my mother's side I have no information on my father's side of the family.
Which, while certainly not ideal, is hardly an unusual circumstance, though you would have thought so given how many times the nurse had to repeat 'unknown' to me.
Nurse: 'Father?'
Me: 'Unknown.'
Nurse: *puzzled look*
Me: 'As in, I do not know anything about him. Un. Known.'
Is that really such an unusual state of affairs, do you think?
The other thing that amused me was the doctors disbelief when I told her that I don't drink. She's put me on a medication that will make you sick if you drink alcohol while you're on it. She kept repeating that I couldn't drink *at all* while on this and I kept telling her it wasn't a problem, since I don't drink. At. All.
I know that people my age are expected to be...alcoholically active, lets call it. But there are plenty of people who don't drink for one reason or another.
Anyway, I left the appointment happy with the doctor but feeling like I might be a little weird. Which is okay since I suspected as much already.
And it all sort of reminded me of the interview that I had when I was converting to Catholicism. The deacon asked me why I was interested in Catholicism and I had an answer about how I was looking for the "original" version of Christianity and Catholicism seemed best.
He asked me if I was looking for the oldest, why not convert to Judaism.
I had a flippant response about how I didn't want to give up bacon. Because Bacon.
Years later and I wonder about the obsession with bacon and generally pork related foods in the South and maybe elsewhere? I don't know how prevalent Pork is King is elsewhere in the country. I mean pork is delicious, sure, but it's not all that good for you actually and why are we so obsessed with getting to eat pork?
Anyway. There's always the first little interview, with the nurse, where they ask about family background, etc. and while I can give the information for my mother's side I have no information on my father's side of the family.
Which, while certainly not ideal, is hardly an unusual circumstance, though you would have thought so given how many times the nurse had to repeat 'unknown' to me.
Nurse: 'Father?'
Me: 'Unknown.'
Nurse: *puzzled look*
Me: 'As in, I do not know anything about him. Un. Known.'
Is that really such an unusual state of affairs, do you think?
The other thing that amused me was the doctors disbelief when I told her that I don't drink. She's put me on a medication that will make you sick if you drink alcohol while you're on it. She kept repeating that I couldn't drink *at all* while on this and I kept telling her it wasn't a problem, since I don't drink. At. All.
I know that people my age are expected to be...alcoholically active, lets call it. But there are plenty of people who don't drink for one reason or another.
Anyway, I left the appointment happy with the doctor but feeling like I might be a little weird. Which is okay since I suspected as much already.
And it all sort of reminded me of the interview that I had when I was converting to Catholicism. The deacon asked me why I was interested in Catholicism and I had an answer about how I was looking for the "original" version of Christianity and Catholicism seemed best.
He asked me if I was looking for the oldest, why not convert to Judaism.
I had a flippant response about how I didn't want to give up bacon. Because Bacon.
Years later and I wonder about the obsession with bacon and generally pork related foods in the South and maybe elsewhere? I don't know how prevalent Pork is King is elsewhere in the country. I mean pork is delicious, sure, but it's not all that good for you actually and why are we so obsessed with getting to eat pork?
Tuesday, August 18, 2015
Not Even All That Late Night Maunderings
You know I started a really long rant about how just believing in God doesn't necessarily mean anything but I'm not feeling it anymore so I deleted it.
My point, I think, was that it's not just enough to believe in God or gods or what have you. You can have an incredibly passive kind of faith in that way. After all, I believe in God but does that inform my life in any way?
I can tell you that at this point it really doesn't. It's not even as though it's an elephant in the room or something that I worry about very much. I know that I'm a better person when I believe, when I follow a religious path in my life. General *waves hands* belief doesn't do it for me in the long run. I actually forget about it and treat religion like an interesting though experiment. But it doesn't make me want to be better, for all it's inherent fascination when you're picking theology apart.
So for me, agnosticism (though what I've described really isn't agnosticism after all) doesn't really work. It leaves me *wanting*. I know that many people can live quite happily like this or without any faith at all and more power to them, right? But I need the framework of a religion in order to feel *correct*, I guess.
Then again, that brings me back to the always present issue....which one?
So far I've wavered mostly between Christianity and Islam. But neither feel right in the way I need them to in order to make a choice. Why not just choose the one that seems almost right? Well, but I did that when I converted to Catholicism and we see that I just eventually fell out again because I couldn't make it stick, mentally. I've no desire to do that again. And maybe I should take the 'feel' of things out of the equation, but what else are you supposed to go on when nothing seems factually more likely than anything else?
Arguments can be made for and against pretty much everything. When you choose a religion there must inherently be that leap of faith. Ha ha, see what I did there? LOL Okay it wasn't *that* punny. :P
Still, that leap has to be based on something, right? A feeling or the certain knowledge that what you're leaping to is correct. Lacking the knowledge of 'correctness' and the feeling of rightness, what am I supposed to do?
My point, I think, was that it's not just enough to believe in God or gods or what have you. You can have an incredibly passive kind of faith in that way. After all, I believe in God but does that inform my life in any way?
I can tell you that at this point it really doesn't. It's not even as though it's an elephant in the room or something that I worry about very much. I know that I'm a better person when I believe, when I follow a religious path in my life. General *waves hands* belief doesn't do it for me in the long run. I actually forget about it and treat religion like an interesting though experiment. But it doesn't make me want to be better, for all it's inherent fascination when you're picking theology apart.
So for me, agnosticism (though what I've described really isn't agnosticism after all) doesn't really work. It leaves me *wanting*. I know that many people can live quite happily like this or without any faith at all and more power to them, right? But I need the framework of a religion in order to feel *correct*, I guess.
Then again, that brings me back to the always present issue....which one?
So far I've wavered mostly between Christianity and Islam. But neither feel right in the way I need them to in order to make a choice. Why not just choose the one that seems almost right? Well, but I did that when I converted to Catholicism and we see that I just eventually fell out again because I couldn't make it stick, mentally. I've no desire to do that again. And maybe I should take the 'feel' of things out of the equation, but what else are you supposed to go on when nothing seems factually more likely than anything else?
Arguments can be made for and against pretty much everything. When you choose a religion there must inherently be that leap of faith. Ha ha, see what I did there? LOL Okay it wasn't *that* punny. :P
Still, that leap has to be based on something, right? A feeling or the certain knowledge that what you're leaping to is correct. Lacking the knowledge of 'correctness' and the feeling of rightness, what am I supposed to do?
Wednesday, July 29, 2015
I want to write blogs (and fic) but I also want to continue mainlining Outlander....
So in lieu of a more in depth post, a question for any random wanderers in here.
Did Adam ever ask for God's forgiveness for the whole serpent/fruit debacle?
There's a thought process behind this question, I swear.
Did Adam ever ask for God's forgiveness for the whole serpent/fruit debacle?
There's a thought process behind this question, I swear.
Tuesday, July 21, 2015
You say 'Father' and I hear nothing good...
I sometimes feel like I'm beating a dead horse every time I come back to the concept of God as 'Father' and how it just does. not. work. for. me.
But here we are again.
I had a nightmare about my step-father last night.
Keep in mind that this is a man I haven't seen in more than a decade.
I haven't spoken to him in probably two years, even briefly.
I don't think about him...ever, really. Not as anything other than a thing that happened.
And I had a nightmare about him finding me last night.
That's what a 'father' is to me, at the end of it all. Someone to be afraid of, to try and appease their mercurial whims even when you know that no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are, there will be some new and arbitrary rule that you missed and broke and that's when the screaming starts.
Or not. And the anger will still descend.
Just because.
There's no dissonance for me between the 'angry' God of the Old Testament and the 'loving' God of the New. Because fathers do that. They act loving and caring and 'no one else would have taken you in, made you their own, I chose you', one second and rain blood and terror on you the next.
I *get* the 'fatherhood' of God, I do.
But I don't want it.
It scares me.
Because 'father' is a frightening concept for me.
At least I have the comfort of knowing that eventually my step-father will die. One day he will overdose or drink himself to death or just flat out die and be gone.
Part of me will still be afraid of him. But he'll be dead.
So there's that.
God as father...it's an eternally angry, hovering presence waiting for me at the edge of my life. Because I will always be failing, somehow, always be waiting for that loving face to turn.
But - but you can ask God for forgiveness, and He will because He is merciful, right? Right.
Only I can't trust it.
I can't tell you how many times I said I was sorry for whatever random offense I had committed and was 'forgiven' only for it to come back later, still that hovering accusation of how terrible I was. Even now, knowing that I am no more terrible than any other person on the planet, that I was actually a terribly well behaved child - out of fear if nothing else, I know that forgiveness is something you can't trust.
Not from a father.
Other people, sure.
Father's are creatures outside of human understanding or control.
I listen to preachers talk about the love of God the Father and I assume that when they hold the idea of father in their minds it is a very different sort of father than the one I have.
I certainly hope so, I wouldn't wish mine on anyone.
At the end of it all though, it means that I can't be comfortable with a Father-God. I can't.
This confuses some people that I've tried to explain it to, they always want to point out the good male role-models I've had, and I've tried to take what they say and apply it, to look at my grandfather as an example of God the Father, or my mothers' husband, who is also technically my step-father, but is an actual good man. And it might work, for a while, but I can't undo decades of learned association, I guess.
I always come back to the image of the 'father' I grew up with. The one scarred into my soul.
And I can't fit the two things together with any sort of comfort.
I can't worship God as a 'father' when a father is a terrible thing to have.
But here we are again.
I had a nightmare about my step-father last night.
Keep in mind that this is a man I haven't seen in more than a decade.
I haven't spoken to him in probably two years, even briefly.
I don't think about him...ever, really. Not as anything other than a thing that happened.
And I had a nightmare about him finding me last night.
That's what a 'father' is to me, at the end of it all. Someone to be afraid of, to try and appease their mercurial whims even when you know that no matter what you do, no matter how good you think you are, there will be some new and arbitrary rule that you missed and broke and that's when the screaming starts.
Or not. And the anger will still descend.
Just because.
There's no dissonance for me between the 'angry' God of the Old Testament and the 'loving' God of the New. Because fathers do that. They act loving and caring and 'no one else would have taken you in, made you their own, I chose you', one second and rain blood and terror on you the next.
I *get* the 'fatherhood' of God, I do.
But I don't want it.
It scares me.
Because 'father' is a frightening concept for me.
At least I have the comfort of knowing that eventually my step-father will die. One day he will overdose or drink himself to death or just flat out die and be gone.
Part of me will still be afraid of him. But he'll be dead.
So there's that.
God as father...it's an eternally angry, hovering presence waiting for me at the edge of my life. Because I will always be failing, somehow, always be waiting for that loving face to turn.
But - but you can ask God for forgiveness, and He will because He is merciful, right? Right.
Only I can't trust it.
I can't tell you how many times I said I was sorry for whatever random offense I had committed and was 'forgiven' only for it to come back later, still that hovering accusation of how terrible I was. Even now, knowing that I am no more terrible than any other person on the planet, that I was actually a terribly well behaved child - out of fear if nothing else, I know that forgiveness is something you can't trust.
Not from a father.
Other people, sure.
Father's are creatures outside of human understanding or control.
I listen to preachers talk about the love of God the Father and I assume that when they hold the idea of father in their minds it is a very different sort of father than the one I have.
I certainly hope so, I wouldn't wish mine on anyone.
At the end of it all though, it means that I can't be comfortable with a Father-God. I can't.
This confuses some people that I've tried to explain it to, they always want to point out the good male role-models I've had, and I've tried to take what they say and apply it, to look at my grandfather as an example of God the Father, or my mothers' husband, who is also technically my step-father, but is an actual good man. And it might work, for a while, but I can't undo decades of learned association, I guess.
I always come back to the image of the 'father' I grew up with. The one scarred into my soul.
And I can't fit the two things together with any sort of comfort.
I can't worship God as a 'father' when a father is a terrible thing to have.
Tuesday, June 23, 2015
There are trees and then there's a Tree
I haven't posted in so long I figure this is going to be rather like speaking into the void. But here we are anyway.
I'm reading the Qur'an this Ramadan, and can I just take a moment to tell you how pleased I was when I discovered that my shiny new Qur'an indicates where it breaks into juz? I had a list printed and everything, which was a little annoying but you do what you must, and then I discovered this feature.
Shiny new Qur'an has many features. Yay shiny new Qur'an!
It's this one, in case you're curious: Al-Qur'an.
So I'm reading the other night and I come across some verses in relation to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Now, the Qur'an is laid out differently from the Bible, and in many cases a story is revisited in different surahs throughout the Qur'an, spreading the details of the story out. Which, I admit, can get annoying when you're used to having the style of the Bible to look at. Story begins, story ends.
I know that there are more verses that deal with Adam and Eve and the 'fall', but this isn't about those, it's about the thought I had while reading these early verses. They're Surat al-Baqarah, 35-37. It's just a short little reference to a story that is familiar to most people. Adam and Eve are in the Garden and God tells them that they can eat from any of the trees therein. Except for this one.
In the Bible, it is called the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. We see it in Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1-7, generally speaking. There's obviously more to those chapters, but those are the verses that refer to the same incident. Here's a link to Genesis 2-3 for reference.
Now, having been raised in Christianity, more or less, I have always filled in the blank when reading Qur'anic references to this story and known that it was the Tree of Knowledge (because the whole name is long and I'm being a lazy typist). However, when I was reading these verses again, it struck me that the Qur'an doesn't spell any such thing out. One might infer it, given the stance that the Qur'an is there to correct mistakes in the previous revelations (mistakes by people, not God) or places where the stories have been corrupted. The fact that the Qur'an doesn't explicitly correct the attribution could be considered support for it or you could look at the fact that the Qur'an doesn't name the tree similarly to say that it was not, in fact, the Tree of Knowledge.
Adam and Eve do realize their nakedness after eating the fruit, which could be taken as another sign that this is the Tree of Knowledge, but it could also be taken that there was nothing special about the tree itself, knowledge wise, only that their first sin brought into possibility shame and other sins.
So. What I was thinking was, there are two different messages that are being presented here, depending on how you look at it. In the Biblical story, the prohibition with regard to the Tree was specifically because it was the Tree of Knowledge. There was also the Tree of Life, but there doesn't seem to be an edict not to eat the fruit of that one. One could interpret the prohibition to mean that knowledge is a part and parcel with sin.
I don't think most people do interpret it that way, or have historically, but it's a thought. I know plenty of people who wish to go back to what they view as the simplicity of the 'Garden times' and I could easily see some of them making this connection. Adam and Eve were happy and in line with God when they were ignorant. Then they gained knowledge (against God's edict) and boom. Everything went to pot.
On the other hand, you have the Qur'anic version of the story which makes no mention of the tree being anything other than a tree. Just a tree that God said not to touch. Which makes Adam and Eve's sin fairly straight forward. God said 'no', they did it anyway. Much simpler. God's not, in this story, even appearing to be wanting to keep them from knowing things as He is in the Biblical version.
There's a rule. They break it. They get punished and forgiven.
Does the Biblical story even mention forgiveness? There's a lot of punishment, a lot of blame going around, but I don't see or recall an explicit mention of Adam or Eve repenting and seeking forgiveness for their transgression.
In the Qur'an they do receive a punishment, they're put out of the Garden to live on/in the rest of the earth and life is much more difficult there, but they are also shown to look for God's forgiveness and to receive it.
I'm reading the Qur'an this Ramadan, and can I just take a moment to tell you how pleased I was when I discovered that my shiny new Qur'an indicates where it breaks into juz? I had a list printed and everything, which was a little annoying but you do what you must, and then I discovered this feature.
Shiny new Qur'an has many features. Yay shiny new Qur'an!
It's this one, in case you're curious: Al-Qur'an.
So I'm reading the other night and I come across some verses in relation to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Now, the Qur'an is laid out differently from the Bible, and in many cases a story is revisited in different surahs throughout the Qur'an, spreading the details of the story out. Which, I admit, can get annoying when you're used to having the style of the Bible to look at. Story begins, story ends.
I know that there are more verses that deal with Adam and Eve and the 'fall', but this isn't about those, it's about the thought I had while reading these early verses. They're Surat al-Baqarah, 35-37. It's just a short little reference to a story that is familiar to most people. Adam and Eve are in the Garden and God tells them that they can eat from any of the trees therein. Except for this one.
In the Bible, it is called the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. We see it in Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1-7, generally speaking. There's obviously more to those chapters, but those are the verses that refer to the same incident. Here's a link to Genesis 2-3 for reference.
Now, having been raised in Christianity, more or less, I have always filled in the blank when reading Qur'anic references to this story and known that it was the Tree of Knowledge (because the whole name is long and I'm being a lazy typist). However, when I was reading these verses again, it struck me that the Qur'an doesn't spell any such thing out. One might infer it, given the stance that the Qur'an is there to correct mistakes in the previous revelations (mistakes by people, not God) or places where the stories have been corrupted. The fact that the Qur'an doesn't explicitly correct the attribution could be considered support for it or you could look at the fact that the Qur'an doesn't name the tree similarly to say that it was not, in fact, the Tree of Knowledge.
Adam and Eve do realize their nakedness after eating the fruit, which could be taken as another sign that this is the Tree of Knowledge, but it could also be taken that there was nothing special about the tree itself, knowledge wise, only that their first sin brought into possibility shame and other sins.
So. What I was thinking was, there are two different messages that are being presented here, depending on how you look at it. In the Biblical story, the prohibition with regard to the Tree was specifically because it was the Tree of Knowledge. There was also the Tree of Life, but there doesn't seem to be an edict not to eat the fruit of that one. One could interpret the prohibition to mean that knowledge is a part and parcel with sin.
I don't think most people do interpret it that way, or have historically, but it's a thought. I know plenty of people who wish to go back to what they view as the simplicity of the 'Garden times' and I could easily see some of them making this connection. Adam and Eve were happy and in line with God when they were ignorant. Then they gained knowledge (against God's edict) and boom. Everything went to pot.
On the other hand, you have the Qur'anic version of the story which makes no mention of the tree being anything other than a tree. Just a tree that God said not to touch. Which makes Adam and Eve's sin fairly straight forward. God said 'no', they did it anyway. Much simpler. God's not, in this story, even appearing to be wanting to keep them from knowing things as He is in the Biblical version.
There's a rule. They break it. They get punished and forgiven.
Does the Biblical story even mention forgiveness? There's a lot of punishment, a lot of blame going around, but I don't see or recall an explicit mention of Adam or Eve repenting and seeking forgiveness for their transgression.
In the Qur'an they do receive a punishment, they're put out of the Garden to live on/in the rest of the earth and life is much more difficult there, but they are also shown to look for God's forgiveness and to receive it.
Sunday, February 8, 2015
I'm Not Really a Responsible Adult. I Don't Even Play One on TV.
I keep meaning to get back to blogging, restart this blog, be myself again, but then I get distracted by a book or a show or I sit down to write and all I want to write about is angry things which is not what I really want to write about.
So I haven't done any of it.
Partially this is because I've been bad about taking my medicine like I should. Certainly my thyroid is not on the level of people who take prescriptions to keep them alive, though it is a permanent and degenerative autoimmune disorder. But if I forget to take my pill one morning it's not going to kill me or endanger me significantly. But it does throw me off. If I miss enough days or am off schedule enough I start to feel sick and cranky and irrationally out of control of my emotions. And I get to feeling like what I imagine depression feels like to some people. I don't want to do anything. I start to lack the energy to do anything but sleep.
Don't get me wrong, this is all my own fault. I know that I have a permanent health problem and I know what to do to maintain a base level of normalcy in my body. But sometimes I forget to do what I should, and since one of the side effects of my thyroid levels dipping in my memory gets worse, it's a slippery little slope.
But I'm being good and I'm feeling better, so inshallah, that won't be a problem anymore.
I've noticed that I'm angrier lately, and I'm not sure how much of that is just being out of whack hormonally and how much is that I've been without a solid religion for so long.
I know that there are plenty of people have no problem living without a faith to follow, but I suspect that I'm not one of them. Or maybe it's just a lingering disappointment in still not having a place to set my feet, so to speak.
Okay.
So I'll get back to the real posts soon, inshallah, but for now, a random observation.
There's a billboard that I pass sometimes that, unfortunately, is in a place I can't get a picture of. There's nowhere to pull over and get a shot of it and I'm not stupid enough to try and take a picture while driving. In spite of some extensive Googling I can't find an example anywhere. But let me tell you how amused I am at some of the billboards that *do* come up. And the fact that one of them is a Hobbit billboard.
Wait. Three. Three Hobbit billboards that Google thinks are about God.
*FOUR*. Google knows something we don't, people.
And one that tells people they can't hold hands with God while masturbating. Which...
I've got nothing.
It's got a sort of clouds and light background and the wording says, 'God is Lord and His is the Glory'.
Want to know what my first thought was, when I saw it?
'When did the Muslims get a billboard?'
I mean I've thought about it since then and I assume that it's actually another Christian billboard but the phrasing just feels so odd to me because I can't remember the last time I heard a Christian say 'God is Lord'. It's always 'Jesus is Lord'.
I really wish they'd put it in a better place so I could get a pic or put the name of their church on it somewhere. Of course it might be on it and I just can't see it because a) driving and b) there are trees.
Okay, end of randomness.
So I haven't done any of it.
Partially this is because I've been bad about taking my medicine like I should. Certainly my thyroid is not on the level of people who take prescriptions to keep them alive, though it is a permanent and degenerative autoimmune disorder. But if I forget to take my pill one morning it's not going to kill me or endanger me significantly. But it does throw me off. If I miss enough days or am off schedule enough I start to feel sick and cranky and irrationally out of control of my emotions. And I get to feeling like what I imagine depression feels like to some people. I don't want to do anything. I start to lack the energy to do anything but sleep.
Don't get me wrong, this is all my own fault. I know that I have a permanent health problem and I know what to do to maintain a base level of normalcy in my body. But sometimes I forget to do what I should, and since one of the side effects of my thyroid levels dipping in my memory gets worse, it's a slippery little slope.
But I'm being good and I'm feeling better, so inshallah, that won't be a problem anymore.
I've noticed that I'm angrier lately, and I'm not sure how much of that is just being out of whack hormonally and how much is that I've been without a solid religion for so long.
I know that there are plenty of people have no problem living without a faith to follow, but I suspect that I'm not one of them. Or maybe it's just a lingering disappointment in still not having a place to set my feet, so to speak.
Okay.
So I'll get back to the real posts soon, inshallah, but for now, a random observation.
There's a billboard that I pass sometimes that, unfortunately, is in a place I can't get a picture of. There's nowhere to pull over and get a shot of it and I'm not stupid enough to try and take a picture while driving. In spite of some extensive Googling I can't find an example anywhere. But let me tell you how amused I am at some of the billboards that *do* come up. And the fact that one of them is a Hobbit billboard.
Wait. Three. Three Hobbit billboards that Google thinks are about God.
*FOUR*. Google knows something we don't, people.
And one that tells people they can't hold hands with God while masturbating. Which...
I've got nothing.
It's got a sort of clouds and light background and the wording says, 'God is Lord and His is the Glory'.
Want to know what my first thought was, when I saw it?
'When did the Muslims get a billboard?'
I mean I've thought about it since then and I assume that it's actually another Christian billboard but the phrasing just feels so odd to me because I can't remember the last time I heard a Christian say 'God is Lord'. It's always 'Jesus is Lord'.
I really wish they'd put it in a better place so I could get a pic or put the name of their church on it somewhere. Of course it might be on it and I just can't see it because a) driving and b) there are trees.
Okay, end of randomness.
Sunday, September 21, 2014
The First Rule of Religion Is...
...we don't talk about religion.
At least in my house.
I don't discuss it with my parents because they follow a distinctly....*waves hands in the air* version of Christianity. They *believe*, but know very little about their own faith.
I cannot tell you how many times I have had to point out/remind one of them that according to their beliefs God didn't just *send* Jesus, that Jesus *was* God. Or how many times I have to point out that the New Testament didn't just spring out of nothingness and that historical context is important to understanding what they're reading.
BUT NO. THEY *BELIEVE* AND THAT'S ALL THAT'S NEEDED.
Logic and reason need not freaking apply.
But I made the mistake on Thursday of talking about religion with my father. And it all boiled down to him telling me that I think too much, throwing out the old line about having the faith of a child and that I need to 'shit or get off the pot'.
*headdesk*
*headdesk FOREVER*
So.
I admit that the minute you start telling me that my *thinking* is getting in the way of God and that I need to be a child who just *trusts* and *believes* that you have lost me.
Because I think. It's what I do. I lack the emotional gullibility to just *believe*. I have seen no miracles. I have experienced no transcendent moments of faith. If I cannot think my way to a point then how can I be expected to believe it?
And I was never the child who just *trusted*. Maybe parents are supposed to be our models of that, they're supposed to be trustworthy so that we can have that blind, loving trust in certain things. But I grew up without parents who could be trusted. And I cannot remember ever blindly believing anything anyone told me. I'm sure there was a time. It's a thing that kids do. But for me that time is so far in the past, was so fleeting that it's as good as a non-event.
But really my favorite part of his argument for why I need to just believe so I can make my choice was that if *his* choice (though he swears he has reasons for belief that he can't explain to anyone) is right then I'm going to hell if I don't make the right choice. Implied, of course, being that it's the same choice that he made.
So we have, in my father's Christianity, this: don't think too hard and be afraid of going to hell.
Yeah.
I can't imagine why none of this appeals to me.
At least in my house.
I don't discuss it with my parents because they follow a distinctly....*waves hands in the air* version of Christianity. They *believe*, but know very little about their own faith.
I cannot tell you how many times I have had to point out/remind one of them that according to their beliefs God didn't just *send* Jesus, that Jesus *was* God. Or how many times I have to point out that the New Testament didn't just spring out of nothingness and that historical context is important to understanding what they're reading.
BUT NO. THEY *BELIEVE* AND THAT'S ALL THAT'S NEEDED.
Logic and reason need not freaking apply.
But I made the mistake on Thursday of talking about religion with my father. And it all boiled down to him telling me that I think too much, throwing out the old line about having the faith of a child and that I need to 'shit or get off the pot'.
*headdesk*
*headdesk FOREVER*
So.
I admit that the minute you start telling me that my *thinking* is getting in the way of God and that I need to be a child who just *trusts* and *believes* that you have lost me.
Because I think. It's what I do. I lack the emotional gullibility to just *believe*. I have seen no miracles. I have experienced no transcendent moments of faith. If I cannot think my way to a point then how can I be expected to believe it?
And I was never the child who just *trusted*. Maybe parents are supposed to be our models of that, they're supposed to be trustworthy so that we can have that blind, loving trust in certain things. But I grew up without parents who could be trusted. And I cannot remember ever blindly believing anything anyone told me. I'm sure there was a time. It's a thing that kids do. But for me that time is so far in the past, was so fleeting that it's as good as a non-event.
But really my favorite part of his argument for why I need to just believe so I can make my choice was that if *his* choice (though he swears he has reasons for belief that he can't explain to anyone) is right then I'm going to hell if I don't make the right choice. Implied, of course, being that it's the same choice that he made.
So we have, in my father's Christianity, this: don't think too hard and be afraid of going to hell.
Yeah.
I can't imagine why none of this appeals to me.
Tuesday, June 24, 2014
John 6
First, a thought that have nothing to do with having been reading John.
I don't understand people who believe that most of humanity was created specifically to go to hell. These are some of the same people who condemn creating embryos for use in stem cell research (not saying they're wrong on that point, by the way). But these are the same things, aren't they? And it's just such a depressing way to think about God and humanity.
And now, on to John.
4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
It’s a little thing, but I think this line helps make it
clear that the Gospels were written after the Apostles began to go after
non-Jewish converts. After all, a Jewish convert would know what Passover was
without the additional descriptive. It’s only someone coming from outside the
Jewish people who would need an explanation, however brief.
7 Philip answered Him, “Two hundred denarii worth of bread
is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little.”
Okay, I was curious as to how much this was in ‘real’ money.
According to the all knowing Google, one denarius was worth about $20 (I have
no back up for this, it was a whim googling). So Philip was saying that they
had about $4000 worth of bread. To feed 5000 people.
I feel like something is wrong with these numbers, to be
frank. Because that seems like a lot of bread. If you’re not expecting to feed
these people for a very long time, it seems to me like you could do it with
$4000 worth of bread. Bah. We’re going to assume that the all knowing Google
has failed me.
*ponders some more*
Okay, if the 5000 counts only the men then there would have been a lot more than just those 5000, adding in
women and children. Yet they only mention feeding the 5000 men later on in the chapter. Another instance of only counting the men and implying that they fed everyone else too?
Either way. That’s a lot of people to be fed and – you know,
I was going to wonder where Jesus and the Apostles got all that money (because
it was rather a lot of money), but really, is Philip saying that they had that
much bread? Or is he saying that even if we had 200 denarii worth of bread, we
still couldn’t feed all of these people?
Random bread thoughts. I has them.
8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said
to Him, 9 “There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish,
but what are they among so many?”
The second. It was clearly the second option. It really has
been a while since I read these stories, hasn’t it? Maybe a case of familiarity
breeding glossing over? After all, these are the stories we grow up on in
Sunday School.
10 Then Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” Now there
was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five
thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He
distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and
likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted. 12 So when they were filled, He
said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is
lost.” 13 Therefore they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with the
fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had
eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said,
“This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
This is one of those instances where (assuming it is meant to recount an
historical incident) it either happened the way it’s written (more or less) and
there was a miracle or the author lied through
his teeth. I can’t think of any other reasonable explanation for that little
food feeding that many people.
The other way to take it is that the miracle here is not meant to be taken as a literal event but as a point of theology. I can think of a couple of meanings for this story, but what do you guys think?
15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to
come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain
by Himself alone.
How would you forcefully make someone king? Even if you
grabbed them and popped a crown on their head, you can’t make them rule, can
you? Not for very long or very well, in any case. Still, I can see the point here of rejecting the idea of earthly power and rule.
19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles,
they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were
afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they
willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land
where they were going.
Again an instance where I wonder about the stories and miracles that didn't make the cut that Jesus walking on water in the middle of a fierce storm is met with a shrug once they recognize him.
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of
God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
I would suspect that this is one of the verses used to support a faith alone argument of Christianity.
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform
then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers
ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven
to eat.’”
Now in verse 26 Jesus says that they follow him not because they've seen the signs but because they ate of the bread and were filled. But isn't the bread a sign?
Direct claim of divinity or a statement of divine purpose? Depending on the theology some people believe that our souls pre-exist our bodies, so why couldn't Jesus have been speaking along the lines of a soul coming down from heaven to do God's work/will but not being divine in and of himself?
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I
am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this
Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that
He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?"
Not hard to believe. After all, whether you think that Jesus was claiming divinity or just divine mandate, this is still a local boy suddenly claiming to be someone huge and important. A little incredulity is to be expected.
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur
among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws
him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets,
‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and
learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father,
except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to
you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Undoubtedly a more direct claim of divinity. If everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus and the prophets are taught by God then Jesus must, in some respect, be God. Or at least claiming such.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the
bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am
the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he
will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall
give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying,
“How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no
life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and
I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My
blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in
Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the
Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread
which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He
who eats this bread will live forever.”
These are some the verses that are understood so very differently in Protestant circles versus Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism (at least the high church variety), Anglicanism, etc.
On the one hand, liturgical churches tend to be the ones who take these verses literally. It's a part of the doctrine of transubstantiation/consubstantiation. The bread and wine during the liturgy literally becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus (well, in a mystically literal sort of way - there are claims that some has been tested and found to be real blood and flesh but I have extreme doubts about such things) and then depending on your theology either remains flesh and blood until consumed or reverts to bread and wine when the spirit leaves.
I should say that whether or not this is true (on the one hand, if Jesus is God this is not outside of his abilities and on the other, kind of cannibalism? but it's a complicated topic and I'm trying not to stay up to all hours so we'll just leave it at this) at least liturgical churches have a great respect for Communion that I have found to be lacking in churches without a liturgy. I keep thinking of my parents' old church, where 'communion' was the most important thing in the church, something that brought everyone together, was Biblical, etc. etc. but only took place once a month unless it got bumped from the schedule for something more important.
Like a singing missionary group.
Or a video.
You can't see it, but I'm making a face. The lack of respect for communion is one of those things that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Wait, no, here.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless
it has been granted to him by My Father.”
I'm not into the idea of pre-destination, after all, what's the point of free will in a set up like that? But I imagine that this verse is one that is used to support that kind of theology.
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve,
and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon,
for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
And then we have Judas. Things don't turn out well for Judas, in the end.
He turns into a vampire.
Wait...wait...no, sorry. That's just a really bad movie.
It still doesn't turn out well for Judas.
Thursday, June 12, 2014
John 5
And we're back!
Again, sorry for the delay.
Life. It is not always conducive to the things we want to do.
Also, crap, it is 12:30 in the morning. Again.
I should offer that that last post, when I said I was going to bed? Turns out I was wrong. The book came out at 12:30 that morning. So when I checked Hawkeye, out of habit, there it was. And what is any good addict to do but start reading? I finished at about 1 am yesterday morning.
I am sleep deprived and super caffeinated. Clearly I make bad life choices on occasion.
This is what adult hood looks like.
Knowing something is a bad idea and doing it anyway. Because you can.
Possibly I am not the best adult. :D
Right. Actual content of post!
Chapter 5 opens with another well known story, that of the paralytic at the pool.
And yet here he is, so close to the possibility of healing but alone. With no one to help him into the pool. How did this happen? How did it come to pass that someone who was obviously assisted and looked after for a large portion of his life comes to be so close to healing and abandoned?
If he is extremely old, perhaps he outlived everyone? Or perhaps he was a bad person and he drove away any family that would have been there to help him?
8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.
And that day was the Sabbath.
Here is another miracle, whether by Jesus' power or God's (with Jesus relaying the message?) Only this one seems to be with purpose different from the first two discussed in John.
I'm not entirely certain why Jesus decided to turn the water into wine, except perhaps that his mother asked him and maybe he was just having a good time at the wedding or the groom was a friend of him.
The officers son who was healed was done due to the faith of the father, I believe.
But this man, the paralytic, so far as we can see, makes no plea nor declaration of faith prior to Jesus declaring him healed. Certainly the man desired healing or he wouldn't be at the pool, but Jesus seems to decide to heal him almost at random.
Though if we follow the tack that Jesus has extra knowledge (things we should not know through ordinary means) then the choice of this man could have been extremely deliberate. If you are going to attract the attention of the powers that be, without seeming to *want* to attract their attention, how better than to heal a man who will immediately run to the temple after his healing?
We assume, from the fact that this man went to the temple after being healed that he is either a very religious man from the start or that he went there, perhaps to be declared clean? We're not given the exact nature of his illness, but perhaps it was something that also made him ritually impure and therefore unable to take part in the worship at the temple?
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” 15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
This is problematic for me. Verse 14 seems to be saying that the man's illness, his infirmity, was caused by his sin. But this doesn't bear out in real life at all. Plenty of truly terrible people are walking around this earth without having to bear the physical wounds of their sins. And good, innocent people suffer illness and bad fortune in life all the time.
If sin = physical illness, shouldn't we see some real life correlation? Or is this just a kind of wishful thinking, that a persons villainy should be evident in their body, an easy way to tell.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
I...can entirely see the Jewish priests and others being upset at the Law being broken, but I have a hard time imagining that *this* is the reason they sought to kill Jesus. Far more likely the rebellion that he was fomenting, with the turning over of the money changers' tables and such was the problem. Rome was not exactly known for their kind and loving method of enforcing the peace.
Though the next verse says that they were extra incensed because Jesus here claimed that God was his father, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps there is something in the original wording used that makes it clear he was referring to God and not to an actual human father?
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
It does not, either, follow that claiming God as his father would make Jesus equal with God. This was a time of gods and demi-gods after all. Certainly the Jewish people had become monotheistic over time, but they were surrounded by polytheistic cultures. Someone claiming to be a son of god (or God) was hardly an unknown quantity. There remains, also, the fact that many people throughout the Bible are referred to as the 'son' of God. These men were not claiming divinity, or at least they were never treated as such.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
Why, if the Son is equally as divine and a part of the Godhead, does the Father need to show him anything? I would never argue that Jesus, incarnate, has access to the divine omniscience, but it remains that if he was truly equal in substance and being with the Father then he would know what the Father knows. And if you are a part of an omniscient being, can you actually set aside your own power? Once Jesus (assuming divinity and incarnation) became a man, did he cease to be God in some way? He limited himself in ways that God certainly never is.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Does any of this read to anyone else like a father passing on a mantle or a responsibility to their son? If the Son is part of God which is the Father (as the unbegotten, uncreated 'part' of God) how are these jobs differentiated? How does the Trinity keep one part of itself out of the judging, etc.?
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Again, if the Trinity is equal, how can one part grant the other part life or power? It seems that there is a very fine line between Triunity and being three separate entities. If one, the Father, has the ultimate control over what the other two are capable of doing, then they cannot be equal in any sense.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Does this not sound as though works are important in the deciding of the destination of a persons soul? That there are things that one can do, laws that one can follow, that enable you to enter heaven?
30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
If Jesus is God, it would seem from verse like this that he is a lesser one, wouldn't it? That he cannot claim the equal power of his other thirds? That the Father is a superior being in some way?
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
While it is true that none have seen God's form (I would question that He even had one, being a transcendent being) several people in the Old Testament are reported to have spoken to God in person, as it were.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Again, prophecy. I am not a big fan of prophecy in general, to be perfectly honest. Prophecies are things that are never clear prior to an event, but seem to become clear when big events happen. We've seen this happen with the 9/11 attacks. People were suddenly shouting at anyone who would listen that the attacks had been predicated by Nostradamus and every other prophetic medium since time immemorial.
You can see almost anything in prophecy if you're willing to believe in it.
I would also point out that they searched the scriptures because the scriptures were given to them as a guide to God's good graces and eternal life. We know that some prophecies referenced in the New Testament as pointing to Christ have been fulfilled by force, as it were. The New Testament authors wrote pieces of the gospels to match Old Testament prophecy of the messiah in order to make Christ the messiah.
Again, sorry for the delay.
Life. It is not always conducive to the things we want to do.
Also, crap, it is 12:30 in the morning. Again.
I should offer that that last post, when I said I was going to bed? Turns out I was wrong. The book came out at 12:30 that morning. So when I checked Hawkeye, out of habit, there it was. And what is any good addict to do but start reading? I finished at about 1 am yesterday morning.
I am sleep deprived and super caffeinated. Clearly I make bad life choices on occasion.
This is what adult hood looks like.
Knowing something is a bad idea and doing it anyway. Because you can.
Possibly I am not the best adult. :D
Right. Actual content of post!
Chapter 5 opens with another well known story, that of the paralytic at the pool.
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For
an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the
water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water,
was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
I should say that I find the details of this man's case slightly odd. We don't know how old he is, but we know that he is at least 38 - since he could have had the infirmity since childhood. The average life expectancy for a man in that time was about (I believe) the late thirties, early forties. So this man is either at the twilight of his life or he has greatly exceeded expectations in spite of his infirmity.
This implies, to me at least, that he had people to help take care of him. Family or friends, someone. He did not live alone in this condition his entire life.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?”
7 The
sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when
the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down
before me.”And yet here he is, so close to the possibility of healing but alone. With no one to help him into the pool. How did this happen? How did it come to pass that someone who was obviously assisted and looked after for a large portion of his life comes to be so close to healing and abandoned?
If he is extremely old, perhaps he outlived everyone? Or perhaps he was a bad person and he drove away any family that would have been there to help him?
8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.
And that day was the Sabbath.
Here is another miracle, whether by Jesus' power or God's (with Jesus relaying the message?) Only this one seems to be with purpose different from the first two discussed in John.
I'm not entirely certain why Jesus decided to turn the water into wine, except perhaps that his mother asked him and maybe he was just having a good time at the wedding or the groom was a friend of him.
The officers son who was healed was done due to the faith of the father, I believe.
But this man, the paralytic, so far as we can see, makes no plea nor declaration of faith prior to Jesus declaring him healed. Certainly the man desired healing or he wouldn't be at the pool, but Jesus seems to decide to heal him almost at random.
Though if we follow the tack that Jesus has extra knowledge (things we should not know through ordinary means) then the choice of this man could have been extremely deliberate. If you are going to attract the attention of the powers that be, without seeming to *want* to attract their attention, how better than to heal a man who will immediately run to the temple after his healing?
We assume, from the fact that this man went to the temple after being healed that he is either a very religious man from the start or that he went there, perhaps to be declared clean? We're not given the exact nature of his illness, but perhaps it was something that also made him ritually impure and therefore unable to take part in the worship at the temple?
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” 15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
This is problematic for me. Verse 14 seems to be saying that the man's illness, his infirmity, was caused by his sin. But this doesn't bear out in real life at all. Plenty of truly terrible people are walking around this earth without having to bear the physical wounds of their sins. And good, innocent people suffer illness and bad fortune in life all the time.
If sin = physical illness, shouldn't we see some real life correlation? Or is this just a kind of wishful thinking, that a persons villainy should be evident in their body, an easy way to tell.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
I...can entirely see the Jewish priests and others being upset at the Law being broken, but I have a hard time imagining that *this* is the reason they sought to kill Jesus. Far more likely the rebellion that he was fomenting, with the turning over of the money changers' tables and such was the problem. Rome was not exactly known for their kind and loving method of enforcing the peace.
Though the next verse says that they were extra incensed because Jesus here claimed that God was his father, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps there is something in the original wording used that makes it clear he was referring to God and not to an actual human father?
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
It does not, either, follow that claiming God as his father would make Jesus equal with God. This was a time of gods and demi-gods after all. Certainly the Jewish people had become monotheistic over time, but they were surrounded by polytheistic cultures. Someone claiming to be a son of god (or God) was hardly an unknown quantity. There remains, also, the fact that many people throughout the Bible are referred to as the 'son' of God. These men were not claiming divinity, or at least they were never treated as such.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
Why, if the Son is equally as divine and a part of the Godhead, does the Father need to show him anything? I would never argue that Jesus, incarnate, has access to the divine omniscience, but it remains that if he was truly equal in substance and being with the Father then he would know what the Father knows. And if you are a part of an omniscient being, can you actually set aside your own power? Once Jesus (assuming divinity and incarnation) became a man, did he cease to be God in some way? He limited himself in ways that God certainly never is.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Does any of this read to anyone else like a father passing on a mantle or a responsibility to their son? If the Son is part of God which is the Father (as the unbegotten, uncreated 'part' of God) how are these jobs differentiated? How does the Trinity keep one part of itself out of the judging, etc.?
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Again, if the Trinity is equal, how can one part grant the other part life or power? It seems that there is a very fine line between Triunity and being three separate entities. If one, the Father, has the ultimate control over what the other two are capable of doing, then they cannot be equal in any sense.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Does this not sound as though works are important in the deciding of the destination of a persons soul? That there are things that one can do, laws that one can follow, that enable you to enter heaven?
30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
If Jesus is God, it would seem from verse like this that he is a lesser one, wouldn't it? That he cannot claim the equal power of his other thirds? That the Father is a superior being in some way?
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
While it is true that none have seen God's form (I would question that He even had one, being a transcendent being) several people in the Old Testament are reported to have spoken to God in person, as it were.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Again, prophecy. I am not a big fan of prophecy in general, to be perfectly honest. Prophecies are things that are never clear prior to an event, but seem to become clear when big events happen. We've seen this happen with the 9/11 attacks. People were suddenly shouting at anyone who would listen that the attacks had been predicated by Nostradamus and every other prophetic medium since time immemorial.
You can see almost anything in prophecy if you're willing to believe in it.
I would also point out that they searched the scriptures because the scriptures were given to them as a guide to God's good graces and eternal life. We know that some prophecies referenced in the New Testament as pointing to Christ have been fulfilled by force, as it were. The New Testament authors wrote pieces of the gospels to match Old Testament prophecy of the messiah in order to make Christ the messiah.
Wednesday, June 4, 2014
John 4
First things first, nothing to do with John or the Bible in general, but did you all know that there's a show called 'Paranormal Home Inspection'? Where people have ghost hunters come and check out their house because they think it's haunted. They also bring along an actual home inspector who manages to explain all the weird goings on with perfectly rational explanations.
But do the people go, 'Oh, yeah, silly me!'
No. No, they do not.
They believe the people who tell them their house was built on a Native American burial ground or that they might be being abducted by aliens.
'Why do these toys keep winding up in the middle of the floor?!?!'
'You've got two kids and a cat.'
'IT MUST BE THE GHOST!'
*home inspector hangs his head in disgust and wanders off to find rational people*
Seriously, he laughs, like he can't believe he's getting paid for this insanity.
I despair of humanity.
DESPAIR.
Right.
Moving on.
John really does contain a lot of the stories that people know even if they haven't been to church in years.
In chapter four we start out with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
From what I remember, it was even more than 'Jews have no dealings with Samaritans' but that were, prior to the Babylonian exile, Jewish tribes themselves. That they were the remnants that were left behind and when the others returned their culture and religion had drifted so far apart that they became two people.
The Samaritans were the people of the Kingdom of Israel and the Jews were the people of the Kingdom of Judah.
And no one carries on a disagreement like family.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
I think it's important to note here that while Jesus is clearly not speaking literally of a water that quenches all thirst for forever, the imagery would have been even more arresting to the woman.
Personally, I live in Florida and we are surrounded with water and greenness all the time. Sometimes we wish there was a little less water, especially when the streets are flooded. But the Bible was written in an arid land. Some place where you couldn't count on just stopping somewhere and finding drinkable water. Wells were the life of the people, the life of a city.
Without them life was impossible.
And water was still a chore to get. We're not talking about a well like this:
A well in ancient times looked more like this:
And they had caps/lids on them to help keep the water clean and cool. Getting water (something you would need to do daily) was not an easy task.
Water was something that you had to have but you had to work for it first.
As an aside, what is believed to be the well in this story is inside of an Orthodox monastery these days.
I also think it interesting to note that this conversation happened at Jacob's well, when Jacob is the wellspring for both the Samaritan people and the Jews.
My rambling is all sort of circling around this. If someone promised you a pill or a drink that would...mean you never had to do something necessary but difficult again (whatever that would be in your life), you'd jump at the chance, right?
I'm not sure, at this point, that the Samaritan woman got where Jesus was going with this.
It is, I believe, generally understood and accepted that the 'living water' Jesus is speaking of here is the Holy Spirit and with it the grace of God.
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
This is one spot where Jesus displays knowledge that he, logically, should not possess. To know (assuming that this is a historical event and not an allegorical story) that this specific woman has been married and remarried and is now...is she married to the man only it's an invalid marriage or is she living with a man outside of marriage? I'm not really sure. Still, it's not something he should know, not being from around there.
And it impresses her. Being the cynical type I'm not at all sure that that would have been enough for me to start calling someone a prophet, but I wasn't there so.
Why am I being easier on the Samaritan woman than on poor Nathanael? Well. Jesus knowing the exact number of times this specific woman he just met has been married (or not as the case may be) is different from saying 'I knew you were under a fig tree', especially since Jesus had been talking with someone who knew Nathanael prior to that encounter. There is a simple, logical way for Jesus to have known about Nathanael sitting under a tree. I don't see one for his knowledge of this womans marital history.
The question at the end is actually at the heart of the divide between Samaritans and Jews. The Samaritans held that the mountain was the sacred spot to worship God, the Jews said it was Jerusalem. If Jesus was the prophet that the woman was thinking him to be, he would have an answer to that.
But he doesn't answer it, though one assumes he knew the answer, either as a prophet or as God.
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
Knowing that the Samaritans and the Jews were, historically, the same people, I wonder at this. How do the Samaritans not know what they worship when they worship the same God in different ways.
I think that verse 21 is usually seen as a prophecy about the destruction of the Temple after Jesus' time and the eventual removal of the Jewish population from the city under...Hadrian, I believe.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
I wonder at the emphasis on God being spirit in verse 24, given that Christianity is an incarnational faith and John is the most explicit about the Trinity in its writings.
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
A lot of people look at this and jump because Jesus is claiming here to be the Messiah. But people who've been raised in Christianity are likely to see Christian interpretations in things because the assumption is so deeply rooted.
We forget that the Messiah, for the Jews and the Samaritans, was not an incarnation of God the way we think of it today. The Messiah they were waiting for as a king, a leader. Someone who would restore their kingdom.
Jesus claiming Messiah-ship here is important, but not necessarily in the way we've been taught that it is.
Okay, this post is getting long....
We have the Samaritan woman running back to the city (abandoning her water jars) to tell everyone about the guy she just met. The disciples, who were off getting food, come back, don't question why Jesus was talking to whoever he wanted to talk to (wise men) and try to feed him like the friends they are.
Then we have the harvest speech, with Jesus alluding again, possibly, to his crucifixion by:
35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Or possibly their own deaths as well? Since most of the Apostles wind up being martyred.
And the Samaritans are so impressed by what the woman from the well says that they ask Jesus to hang for a while and he does and many of them believed after hearing him speak.
Then he turns and continues on his way to the Galilee and we get this:
46 So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”
49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”
50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”
52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.
54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.
I think that the emphasis here is on faith without signs. Though obviously the healing of the mans son would be a miracle and a sign, he *believed* that his son was healed based on Jesus saying it rather than on any proof. Jesus didn't come with him and lay hands on his son. He didn't do anything physical, like when he heals the blind man (with the mud and the spit). He said, 'Your son lives' and that was that.
Which is similar (of course) to the creation stories. God says 'be' and everything is. He doesn't have to *do* anything.
So I can see this as a demonstration of divine power, but on the other hand, assuming that Jesus was a prophet rather than God incarnate, couldn't God have given him knowledge that God had healed the son? Jesus didn't say '*I* have healed your son'.
And now, a picture of one of my cats completely not respecting my attempts to use the Bible as reference material.
Why? Because he's a jerk. A giant, small child devouring jerk of a cat who used to fit in the palm of my hand and can now crush my chest if he tries to sleep on me.
The Bible *was* open to where I was reading, but he flicked his tail so hard he flipped the pages back a couple of chapters.
But do the people go, 'Oh, yeah, silly me!'
No. No, they do not.
They believe the people who tell them their house was built on a Native American burial ground or that they might be being abducted by aliens.
'Why do these toys keep winding up in the middle of the floor?!?!'
'You've got two kids and a cat.'
'IT MUST BE THE GHOST!'
*home inspector hangs his head in disgust and wanders off to find rational people*
Seriously, he laughs, like he can't believe he's getting paid for this insanity.
I despair of humanity.
DESPAIR.
Right.
Moving on.
John really does contain a lot of the stories that people know even if they haven't been to church in years.
In chapter four we start out with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
From what I remember, it was even more than 'Jews have no dealings with Samaritans' but that were, prior to the Babylonian exile, Jewish tribes themselves. That they were the remnants that were left behind and when the others returned their culture and religion had drifted so far apart that they became two people.
The Samaritans were the people of the Kingdom of Israel and the Jews were the people of the Kingdom of Judah.
And no one carries on a disagreement like family.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
I think it's important to note here that while Jesus is clearly not speaking literally of a water that quenches all thirst for forever, the imagery would have been even more arresting to the woman.
Personally, I live in Florida and we are surrounded with water and greenness all the time. Sometimes we wish there was a little less water, especially when the streets are flooded. But the Bible was written in an arid land. Some place where you couldn't count on just stopping somewhere and finding drinkable water. Wells were the life of the people, the life of a city.
Without them life was impossible.
And water was still a chore to get. We're not talking about a well like this:
A well in ancient times looked more like this:
And they had caps/lids on them to help keep the water clean and cool. Getting water (something you would need to do daily) was not an easy task.
Water was something that you had to have but you had to work for it first.
As an aside, what is believed to be the well in this story is inside of an Orthodox monastery these days.
I also think it interesting to note that this conversation happened at Jacob's well, when Jacob is the wellspring for both the Samaritan people and the Jews.
My rambling is all sort of circling around this. If someone promised you a pill or a drink that would...mean you never had to do something necessary but difficult again (whatever that would be in your life), you'd jump at the chance, right?
I'm not sure, at this point, that the Samaritan woman got where Jesus was going with this.
It is, I believe, generally understood and accepted that the 'living water' Jesus is speaking of here is the Holy Spirit and with it the grace of God.
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
This is one spot where Jesus displays knowledge that he, logically, should not possess. To know (assuming that this is a historical event and not an allegorical story) that this specific woman has been married and remarried and is now...is she married to the man only it's an invalid marriage or is she living with a man outside of marriage? I'm not really sure. Still, it's not something he should know, not being from around there.
And it impresses her. Being the cynical type I'm not at all sure that that would have been enough for me to start calling someone a prophet, but I wasn't there so.
Why am I being easier on the Samaritan woman than on poor Nathanael? Well. Jesus knowing the exact number of times this specific woman he just met has been married (or not as the case may be) is different from saying 'I knew you were under a fig tree', especially since Jesus had been talking with someone who knew Nathanael prior to that encounter. There is a simple, logical way for Jesus to have known about Nathanael sitting under a tree. I don't see one for his knowledge of this womans marital history.
The question at the end is actually at the heart of the divide between Samaritans and Jews. The Samaritans held that the mountain was the sacred spot to worship God, the Jews said it was Jerusalem. If Jesus was the prophet that the woman was thinking him to be, he would have an answer to that.
But he doesn't answer it, though one assumes he knew the answer, either as a prophet or as God.
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
Knowing that the Samaritans and the Jews were, historically, the same people, I wonder at this. How do the Samaritans not know what they worship when they worship the same God in different ways.
I think that verse 21 is usually seen as a prophecy about the destruction of the Temple after Jesus' time and the eventual removal of the Jewish population from the city under...Hadrian, I believe.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
I wonder at the emphasis on God being spirit in verse 24, given that Christianity is an incarnational faith and John is the most explicit about the Trinity in its writings.
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
A lot of people look at this and jump because Jesus is claiming here to be the Messiah. But people who've been raised in Christianity are likely to see Christian interpretations in things because the assumption is so deeply rooted.
We forget that the Messiah, for the Jews and the Samaritans, was not an incarnation of God the way we think of it today. The Messiah they were waiting for as a king, a leader. Someone who would restore their kingdom.
Jesus claiming Messiah-ship here is important, but not necessarily in the way we've been taught that it is.
Okay, this post is getting long....
We have the Samaritan woman running back to the city (abandoning her water jars) to tell everyone about the guy she just met. The disciples, who were off getting food, come back, don't question why Jesus was talking to whoever he wanted to talk to (wise men) and try to feed him like the friends they are.
Then we have the harvest speech, with Jesus alluding again, possibly, to his crucifixion by:
35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Or possibly their own deaths as well? Since most of the Apostles wind up being martyred.
And the Samaritans are so impressed by what the woman from the well says that they ask Jesus to hang for a while and he does and many of them believed after hearing him speak.
Then he turns and continues on his way to the Galilee and we get this:
46 So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”
49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”
50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”
52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.
54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.
I think that the emphasis here is on faith without signs. Though obviously the healing of the mans son would be a miracle and a sign, he *believed* that his son was healed based on Jesus saying it rather than on any proof. Jesus didn't come with him and lay hands on his son. He didn't do anything physical, like when he heals the blind man (with the mud and the spit). He said, 'Your son lives' and that was that.
Which is similar (of course) to the creation stories. God says 'be' and everything is. He doesn't have to *do* anything.
So I can see this as a demonstration of divine power, but on the other hand, assuming that Jesus was a prophet rather than God incarnate, couldn't God have given him knowledge that God had healed the son? Jesus didn't say '*I* have healed your son'.
And now, a picture of one of my cats completely not respecting my attempts to use the Bible as reference material.
Why? Because he's a jerk. A giant, small child devouring jerk of a cat who used to fit in the palm of my hand and can now crush my chest if he tries to sleep on me.
The Bible *was* open to where I was reading, but he flicked his tail so hard he flipped the pages back a couple of chapters.
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