Friday, May 21, 2010

The Devil Inside

"Just when you'd think they were more malignant than ever Hell could be, they could occasionally show more grace than Heaven ever dreamed of. Often the same individual was involved. It was this freewill thing, of course. It was a bugger."

So, I was reading the comments on one of Susanne's posts, and a comment Suroor made about some Muslims believing that Iblis was a metaphor for the evil and proud side of human nature. I know plenty of Christians who believe the same thing, only insert Satan for Iblis. (I know they're kind of the same role, but not at all the same character.)

Anyway. I think, on the one hand, references to the devil *can* be metaphors for human nature's dark side. On the other, I really do believe that there is *a* Devil. Satan, Lucifer, the Morning Star, whatever you want to call him. And that he used to be the best and brightest angel, but that he fell. Now, I'm not sold on the whole, fell because of his desire to *be* God, thing. I mean, I know. It's what we're told, but on a certain level, it doesn't work.

I've made this argument before, but I'll reiterate it here, for the record. Mankind was created with free will. God did not want automatons worshiping Him, He wanted us to *choose*. Otherwise, why bother with free will? But, if God is all that exists, and all the angels are on His side, then what is there to choose between? If you don't know that there's an option, you can't make a choice. So there needs to be someone *offering* the choice. Enter Satan. I think of it more as a job, than anything else. Someone needs to be standing there offering you that other path in order for you to make a choice. Otherwise, free will is pointless.

"He rather liked people. It was a major failing in a demon. Oh, he did his best to make their short lives miserable, because that was his job, but nothing he could think up was half as bad as the stuff they thought up themselves. They seemed to have a talent for it. It was built into the design, somehow. They were born into a world that was against them in a thousand little ways, and then devoted most of their energies to making it worse."

I don't think that the Devil and his minions run around causing all sorts of disasters and evil things. I think, for the most part, it's just us. Sure, they're there to tempt us, to offer the darker path, but we make the choice. *We* do the deed. It's on us.

"There were people who called themselves Satanists who made Crowley squirm. It wasn't just the things they did, it was the way they blamed it all on Hell. They'd come up with some stomach-churning idea that no demon could have thought of in a thousand years, some dark and mindless unpleasantness that only a fully-functioning human brain could conceive, then shout "The Devil Made Me Do It" and get the sympathy of the court when the whole point was that the Devil hardly ever made anyone do anything. He didn't have to. That was what some humans found hard to understand. Hell wasn't a major reservoir of evil, any more than Heaven, in Crowley's opinion, was a fountain of goodness; they were just sides in the great cosmic chess game. Where you found the real McCoy, the real grace and the real heart-stopping evil, was right inside the human mind."

(all quotes from the Best Book Ever Written - Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett)

16 comments:

  1. Great quotes from that book! I agree the whole devil-made-me-do-it thing is a cop out. We are tempted, yes, but guns are not at our heads forcing us to sin. We choose to do right or we choose to do wrong.

    Oooooo, I'm interested in your thoughts on the fall of Lucifer. You think the version we are told isn't right? Is this part of that 'I think it's a job' theory? In reality the verses used about Satan's fall are in a more symbolic reference. So maybe that is wrong and they should be taken literally and not symbolically? Here's what I am talking about:

    "Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. "

    I got it from here in case you want to see their POV and tear it apart. ;)

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html


    Thanks for posting this! I enjoy reading your perspective on things!

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  2. Ooooo Neil Gaiman

    This is a really cool post. I agree with you. Sometimes I think its just satan's job. The Muslim explanation for Satan's fall makes a little more sense then him wanting to be God. He essencially would not bow to Adam and he threw a fit. God then gave him the job of manning Hell. That is in a nutshell of course. But often I think it was just that God did need an opposite force in order to balance free will.

    And we are worse than anything Satan can come up with. We do way more damage to ourselves.

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  3. SQUEE GOOD OMENS QUOTES. :D

    Also, I have come to the conclusion all characters named "Crowley" must be awesome. I only know of 2, but it's true 100% of the time so far!

    Ok, now I can be serious.

    Who offered Satan the choice? I can understand it being a job...maybe a job that changes and isn't always one person? My issue w/the idea of Satan as one static being is that it turns into sort of a dual-god theology in my opinion. If there is one evil being that is responsible for all the evil in the world and tempting everyone, he may as well be another god at that point. If there is only one God that created everything, and one of those creations (Satan) was capable of falling all by himself, why does everyone else need Satan to offer them a choice? Unless it's just that Lucifer fell first so at that point everything else sees there is a choice?

    I don't know, it's confusing.

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  4. Susanne,

    *Everything* about Good Omens is awesome. *EVERYTHING*. I think it should be required reading, for the planet.

    Yes. I think that the version we have is, at the least, not the whole truth. Like the creation myth, it serves a purpose, but I don't think it's what actually happened.

    Hmmm, yes. If not entirely literal, they should at least not be taken as the truth of something that happened before the creation of, well, *everything*. We don't know what, or how, anything went down, really.

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  5. LK,

    Actually, for me, the Muslim explanation makes less sense. I think it's because of the whole need to create a third race of being in order to have a devil. If Iblis was a jinn, what was he doing with the angels? And why did God want all the angels, and the jinn, to bow down to Adam? Wouldn't that have set the jinn up for possible idolatry toward mankind?

    On the other hand, I can completely see an incredibly powerful being, who has seen the face of God, who is actually placed higher than other really incredibly powerful beings, deciding that he's had enough of this crap and staging a coup. I don't really think that's what happened, but I can see it as a possibility.

    Supernatural actually had it kind of right: If the fall is correct, then Satan is basically a first born child throwing a tantrum because the new baby came home and he's not the favorite anymore.

    But, I really don't think that's the case. I think 'satan' is a job. A necessity for free will to function.

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  6. Sanil,

    I *know*. It just lends itself *so well* to these conversations!

    'Also, I have come to the conclusion all characters named "Crowley" must be awesome. I only know of 2, but it's true 100% of the time so far!'

    The data pool is small, but I believe your assessment is entirely accurate! :) I kept wanting a phone call between Crowley and someone named 'Zira' on SPN. I *know* they're not the same Crowley, but it would have made my nerd heart explode in joy!

    'Who offered Satan the choice? I can understand it being a job...maybe a job that changes and isn't always one person?'

    In my thinking, there wasn't a choice. Satan didn't actually rebel against heaven. That's just the story. I think that it's an assignment. He's still an angel, just doing a nasty (but necessary) job. So sure, I guess the angels could take turns. Who'd work up the rota though? :)

    'My issue w/the idea of Satan as one static being is that it turns into sort of a dual-god theology in my opinion. If there is one evil being that is responsible for all the evil in the world and tempting everyone, he may as well be another god at that point.'

    An excellent point. There's the line about any sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic? Well, any sufficiently powerful being is indistinguishable from a god, as well. Compared to us, angels might as well be gods, for all the power and knowledge that they possess.

    'If there is only one God that created everything, and one of those creations (Satan) was capable of falling all by himself, why does everyone else need Satan to offer them a choice? Unless it's just that Lucifer fell first so at that point everything else sees there is a choice?'

    Well, I don't think he really fell, but I guess you could argue that Lucifer was just much smarter than the rest of us, and he figured out that he had an option on his own.

    And then, you have the problem of his being eternally damned. If humans have the chance at redemption, why not fallen angels? Why couldn't Lucifer and his demons at some point realize they screwed up, and turn back? It makes no sense that, since they have the capability to make choices, they wouldn't be able to choose again, to reverse an error.

    I think that's why some Orthodox theologians allow for the possibility that Satan could, in fact, repent. They don't talk about his eternal damnation because we don't really know for sure...

    But all that's beside the point!

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  7. Wonderful post and comments. All of them!

    I too see Satan as a job. Don't really believe in Lucifer and his fall or Satan or Iblis or whatever.

    I know, I'm not a perfect believer. But I try :)

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  8. Yeah Amber, as a job makes more sense. Both stories are a bit flawed. And he does come off as an upset only child.

    A lot of books have turned Satan into a job. Thats how the Greeks viewed Hades. It was his job to run the underworld and punish people....not his punishment for something he did.

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  9. I kept wanting a phone call between Crowley and someone named 'Zira' on SPN. I *know* they're not the same Crowley, but it would have made my nerd heart explode in joy!

    Oh, that would have been awesome! Maybe it will happen in season 6? :D We can hope.

    ...It just occurred to me that I would not be at all surprised if there is fanfic like that. I must remember to look this summer, after I finish my last assignment this Monday. [strike]If there's not yet, I might have to write some.[/strike] (Blogger comments do not like html that goes beyond bold and italics apparently, but we all know what that means, yes? :D So yay brackets.)

    Well, I don't think he really fell, but I guess you could argue that Lucifer was just much smarter than the rest of us, and he figured out that he had an option on his own.

    Oh, I thought you had said you did. I was confused since the rest of your entry seemed to imply he hadn't. So that makes sense.

    I think that's why some Orthodox theologians allow for the possibility that Satan could, in fact, repent. They don't talk about his eternal damnation because we don't really know for sure...

    I love that! I was really irritated once during a church service where the pastor talked about his very young daughter and how she wanted to pray that the devil would be saved. Everyone laughed, and he laughed, and he said that he had to explain to her that while that was sweet and he loved her mercy, that wasn't going to happen and they shouldn't pray for that. *sigh* But oh well. People are entitled to their beliefs, I guess that works for him.

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  10. Suroor,

    I'm (surprisingly) finding more and more people who don't take the fall of Satan as literally as I was taught. It's nice. :)

    'I know, I'm not a perfect believer. But I try :)'

    None of us are, and that's all we can do. :)

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  11. LK,

    It's true. Most mythic stories have their flaws that make us sit back and go, 'uh, wait a second...'

    'A lot of books have turned Satan into a job.'

    He just makes such an awesome literary character too. (I may or may not have a yen for the devil & demons in my literature...)

    'Thats how the Greeks viewed Hades. It was his job to run the underworld and punish people....not his punishment for something he did.'

    True. But didn't he get tricked into the job by Zeus and Poseidon? It's been awhile since I read the Greek myths....

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  12. Sanil,

    'Oh, that would have been awesome! Maybe it will happen in season 6? :D We can hope.'

    I would *pay* for that. I totally would. It's early days, yet, but the rumors/spoilers are already flying! I *really* want Crowley to come back, and not get killed, even if it's just a cameo!

    '...It just occurred to me that I would not be at all surprised if there is fanfic like that. I must remember to look this summer, after I finish my last assignment this Monday. [strike]If there's not yet, I might have to write some.[/strike]'

    *glances around* There *is* some crossover fic with GO/SPN, with Crowley being the same character and then introducing Aziraphale. There's this one series I really like. I could point you to them, but I must warn, they are all slash (or, well, the only ones that I've read are, but there may be some that aren't. I just don't hang around the gen/het sites...). So, if that's an issue, I won't.

    'Oh, I thought you had said you did. I was confused since the rest of your entry seemed to imply he hadn't. So that makes sense.'

    I did mention the fall, but I meant it more like, 'this is the story we all know', not that that's what I think happened. Sorry for the confusion! :)

    'I love that! I was really irritated once during a church service where the pastor talked about his very young daughter and how she wanted to pray that the devil would be saved. Everyone laughed, and he laughed, and he said that he had to explain to her that while that was sweet and he loved her mercy, that wasn't going to happen and they shouldn't pray for that. *sigh* But oh well. People are entitled to their beliefs, I guess that works for him.'

    Yes, very irritating. Let's all go ahead and limit God's Mercy, shall we? *blows raspberry* People are entitled to their beliefs, and I'm entitled to mock them, privately, and behind their backs. (Okay, I'm probably not *actually* entitled to do that, but I'm not likely to stop, so let's just pretend I *am* entitled, and leave it at that...)

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  13. *glances around* There *is* some crossover fic with GO/SPN, with Crowley being the same character and then introducing Aziraphale. There's this one series I really like. I could point you to them, but I must warn, they are all slash (or, well, the only ones that I've read are, but there may be some that aren't. I just don't hang around the gen/het sites...). So, if that's an issue, I won't.

    SWEET, please do! Slash is not an issue for me, I don't hang around gen/het sites either. :D Thanks!

    Out of curosity, have you ever read "Its Own Place" or "The Sacred and the Profane"? My two favorite ever fanfics, both for GO, although "The Sacred and the Profane" is a sad sad SAD AU.

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  14. Sanil,

    *Awesome*.

    Okay, I'm not at home, so I don't have access to all my links, but this is my favorite crossover. It's an ongoing series:

    http://icarus-chained.livejournal.com/159049.html

    It's called the Arrangements Verse. It's Crowley/Aziraphale, Dean/Castiel and Gabriel/Sam.

    Hmmm...there are, I think, some others posted at this Gabriel community:

    http://community.livejournal.com/spn_gabriel/

    Though most of the fic there is Gabriel/Sam.

    And, oh...crap. I can't remember the name of the other fic that I loved so much. I've got it bookmarked at home though. Grrr. It was *epic* and Crowley and Zira were in it, though only as supporting characters...ugh.

    'Out of curosity, have you ever read "Its Own Place" or "The Sacred and the Profane"?'

    They don't sound familiar off the top of my head, no. Do you have a link to them? I'm always up for more good GO fic.

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  15. Coooool. :D Can't wait to start those.

    Its Own Place

    The Sacred and the Profane

    Also, I get most of my fanfic from TV Tropes suggestions, so here's the link for their Good Omens page.

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  16. Sanil,

    Enjoy! Arrangements verse is the best crossover I've seen so far, and it's still ongoing.

    Also, I stopped by home and found the link to the other story. It's called 'Dies Irae, Or Something' and here's a link to the masterpost:

    http://alchemyalice.livejournal.com/#post-alchemyalice-5255

    It's less about Crowley/Aziraphale and more SPN, but they're there, and I have a deep love for this fic. Canon could have been like this, and it would have been awesome.

    Oooh...linkies....I'll have to check them out Monday night when I'm really back home.

    Thanks!

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