Tuesday, May 17, 2011

VBV - Ch. 4 Pt. 11

Oh, thank heaven. We are nearly done with this chapter! Not the book, mind, but this chapter which claims to teach people something about Islamic theology.

Let's see...

Good Deeds of Believers Rewarded?

surah an-Nisa 4:124 - "If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

surah at-Taubah 9:72 - "Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity."

surah al-Kjahf 18:107 - "As to those who believe and work righteous deeds, they have, for their entertainment, the Gardens of Paradise,"

There's more, but I think that's enough to get the point. The author takes six such verses, which promise those who believe and who do good works heaven, and compares them to one verse, surah al-Mu'minum 23:102-3 - "Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation: But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in Hell will they abide."

Let me say this, first, though it has nothing to do with the authors point. I would think, looking at these verses, that it should put paid to the idea that Islam is a faith of salvation by works. Each verse mentions two things: faith and works. Not one without the other, but both. Together.


Moving on...the authors point is actually that, according to the last verse quoted, Muslims have no way of knowing whether or not they are saved. They won't know until they die and are judged whether or not they managed to do enough good deeds to win God's favor. Again, it's one of these things that I can see where she's coming from, but I'm not certain that that's exactly what the verse says. Perhaps I'm reading too much of a Christian interpretation into it, but, looking at the verse is it not possible that what is being said is that the lack of good deeds, or good works, is a sign that the person is not a Believer? That they, not *because* of their lack of good works, are not saved and that the lack of 'good fruit' is merely a sign of that?


She leans very heavily on the 'lack of assurance of salvation' in Islam and I really can't get behind that. Again and again, I run up against the problem that this point of view, that we can be assured of our salvation, is erroneous. No one knows that state of their own soul, let alone anyone elses'. Salvation is a process, not a one time thing. 


Inhabitants of Paradise Will Feel No Sorrow


surah al-A'raf 7:42-43 - "But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear,- they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (for ever). And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury;- beneath them will be rivers flowing;- and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth, that the messengers of our Lord brought unto us." And they shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors, for your deeds (of righteousness).""

Really, I'm just including this bit for completeness' sake. I've got nothing to say, and really neither does the author. Do you think we will feel pain or suffering or sadness in Heaven? No. We will be with God, with the angels and the saints and our loved ones. But most of all, we will be with God. How can you feel pain or suffering when you are in the presence of Love and Goodness? 

35 comments:

  1. "is it not possible that what is being said is that the lack of good deeds, or good works, is a sign that the person is not a Believer?"

    I'm not sure good conduct correlates with belief...

    I saw salvation in Islam in terms of: God forgives sins (e.g. when you convert, when you do hajj) and gives bonus good deeds for special practices like fasting day of Arafah, praying laylat al qadr etc. So it's like God alters the weighing scales for Muslims who do these special rituals.

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  2. Great post! :) You know, that's what occurred to me one day. That none of us can really know what will happen to us. Including Christians, as much as most of the ones I know personally love to trumpet about how they're going to Heaven because they're saved. I don't think we can do anything but have faith in the goodness and mercy of God, and do the best we can to follow His laws in the holy books. But you're right -- the faith and the works go hand-in-hand.

    I was reading "Eat, Pray, Love" and one part stuck out at me in a big way. Back in the 50's, Pope Pius XI was sending some clerics to Libya for something or another, and he instructed them "Do NOT think you are going among infidels. Muslims attain salvation, too. The ways of Providence are infinite." If the POPE of all people can be open-minded enough to admit that Christians/Catholics aren't the only ones who can go to heaven, I think the rest of us can get down off our sometimes lofty high horses and just be nice to each other and quit denouncing each others' faith.

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  3. Sarah,

    I did think I was maybe reading too much of the Christian theology into the statement. Which is less that good conduct necessarily correlates to belief, but that a believer will do good deeds: feed and clothe the poor, the hungry, care for their neighbors, etc. Which is not to say that people who aren't believers don't do those things as well. More that, if you claim to be a believer and yet you produce no good things, you do not really have the Holy Spirit.

    I've heard your understanding before, that it's a scale, and God will tip the scale for people who follow the prescribed rituals as opposed to those who do not. The scales always remind me of the old Egyptian belief in the weighing of the soul against Ma'at's feather.

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  4. Heather,

    I think it's a very modern thing, this belief that people can be assured of heaven or hell. We just don't know.

    Oh, but denouncing is fun! ;D

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  5. Everything I want to say is coming out snarky. (Not at you, at my Baptist upbringing...I'm trying to get over it, really.) So I'm gonna shut up. Great post!

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  6. You can snark, if you want. This is a snark safe zone! :)

    Hey, did you ever get that box I mailed you?

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  7. When I've talked to my Muslim friends I always get the sense of the scales analogy being right. They say ultimately it's God's grace/mercy that allows you to go into heaven, however, if you have done many good things, you have a lot of good works on your scales that God is more likely to see things in your favor and let you in.

    So there is that element of God's mercy and it is the ultimate thing. But there is also that thing - kind of like when we work hard to get a promotion at our jobs - that makes it works based, imo. I've never had anyone say the scales analogy is wrong. Rather I've been told all the things I could do to get good deed points: having sex with my husband, picking up litter, taking care of my parents, etc.

    I think some people believe in assurance of salvation based on certain verses in the Bible that say "you shall know" in relation to salvation. I can see their points, but I can also see yours. :) I'm so wishy-washy!

    But as we both have said in the past, faith without works is dead. You cannot say "Oh I believe in Jesus" and be assured of your salvation. If you have no works, your faith is dead.

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  8. Susanne,

    So...God's grace gives them the chance to get into heaven, but it's the weight of good deeds vs. bad that decide whether they make it or not?

    Too much of a points system, for me.

    Yes, but my point is *right*! :D

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  9. "God's grace gives them the chance to get into heaven, but it's the weight of good deeds vs. bad that decide whether they make it or not?"

    More like you become a Muslim by saying the shahada and immediately your past sins are forgiven.

    So - this is how I interpret what I've been told - you are essentially a clean slate.

    So you go on from there and if you do good, you have good deed points on your scale. If you do bad, bad points are present.

    Hopefully you do many more GOOD deeds therefore on Judgment Day your scales are tipped far heavier on the positive side.

    Since no one is assured of salvation, you can't say you definitely will be in heaven, but if you are 90% good and 10% bad, you have a much better chance.

    And since assurance is never guaranteed, it ultimately is God's mercy/grace that allows you into His dwelling.

    You just have a much better chance if God sees you have all these good deeds to your credit. Kind of like when the boss is looking to promote someone or a solider is due for a promotion, they may check her record to see what she has done. You are more likely to get promoted if you've worked hard, gone the extra mile, etc.

    But still it's ultimately the mercy of your boss/superior to promote you. If you did all this good stuff yet they don't like you, you may get passed over. Thus there is no assurance just a likelihood.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I've grown to understand it based on conversations with Muslims.

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  10. I see. But isn't it a part of God's grace that offers them the shahada? Rather than having them believe and have to 'work off' their past misdeeds, God gives them this blank slate. How is that not grace and mercy?

    Like I said. Too reminiscent of the weighing of the soul against Ma'at's feather for me.

    I would think that the mercy/grace would be the fact that God set up this system at all, under this line of thinking, right? Because if the system is set up so that your good deeds get you in as long as they outweigh your bad deeds, then God has to let you in, if you meet that criteria. Otherwise, He's set up a false system and has lied to humanity.

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  11. Good points. I remember over a year ago we were discussing something on Achelois' blog if I remember correctly. A Muslim man was pooh poohing the fact that Christians believe your sins are gone if you believe in Jesus, etc. so I was pointing out that I thought Muslims also believed in forgiveness of past sins if they became Muslim, performed hajj and so forth. And wasnt' that the same principle? One Muslimah chimed in that she was told having babies purified her from past sins.

    I remember Sarah told us how funny it was that we were arguing over who had the most merciful God. And *I* was the one trying to point out the mercy of Allah since this Muslim guy seemed to think it was a bad trait that God forgave past sins. He would bring up Hitler and how if Hitler had "believed in Jesus" before dying, he would have gone to heaven.

    Not that this is entirely related to your post, but your part about the shahada being God's grace and all that. Plus Muslims believe God guides them to the right path so that's His grace too.

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  12. Sorry! I meant to email you back and let you know, but clearly I got distracted. Yes, I did get the box. I'm loving the music and the books are calling to me from the shelves...they will have to wait a couple more weeks, though. *sigh* Thank you so much!

    Meh. :) I know it is, but I try to limit myself to productive snarking at least. After three times editing my comment and trying and failing to achieve that, I gave up. It was just rambling about assurance of salvation, and you and Susanne went through that anyway without the snark or the rambling. :)

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  13. Susanne,

    I sort of remember that conversation as well. It was sort of funny, almost of fight over whose God was more merciful, and then the one guy over there going 'mercy is for the weak!' *lol*

    Inevitably, in any argument, someone will bring up Hitler/the Nazis. Godwin's Law.

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  14. sanil,

    Cool! I was just checking. :) I'm glad you're enjoying it, and the books, I think, are very good.

    lol Well, as long as you don't feel that your snarking rights are being oppressed...

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  15. Now I am curious if Hitler had become a Muslim would have have been forgiven of his sins? Or does that only count if you haven't been reallllllly bad in your past?

    Yeah, mercy wars... too funny! :D


    LOL @ "Well, as long as you don't feel that your snarking rights are being oppressed" to Sanil! Haha!

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  16. Susanne,

    Umm...according to our understanding, yes. I think. It's one of those awful ideas, really. He's one of those people who was so evil, who caused so much pain and suffering that the thought of him getting off, of being forgiven, is repugnant. But there it is. God's mercy, in order to be just, cannot be a case by case basis - it must be available to all. That being said, I sincerely doubt that Hitler had any true, honest change of heart right before.

    :D My God's more merciful than yours, and if you don't agree with me, I'm going to punch you in the nose!

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  17. LOL @ mercy wars :D

    I think the problem is that mercy and justice actually clash, and it's only in an extreme case like Hitler that you really see the clash and feel uncomfortable about it.

    Whether it's weighing scales, or faith alone, or whatever, none of the options seem to come up with a satisfying solution for every possible case. That's the way I feel anyway.

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  18. I mean, an extreme case like the hypothetical deathbed repentance of Hitler. ;o)

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  19. "I think the problem is that mercy and justice actually clash, and it's only in an extreme case like Hitler that you really see the clash and feel uncomfortable about it."

    I have actually thought of this before and would love to hear your thoughts on it, Amber and Sarah. Anyone really.

    You can share it here or do a post, but I'd love to read your thoughts on this (mercy and justice clash). Glad you brought it up, Sarah!

    ---------------------

    Yeah, I don't think Hitler made some sort of death-bed confession, but was just curious if it would have "took" if he had converted to Islam or accepted Jesus as his savior prior to dying. He killed himself, didn't he? Or is that a rumor that I am wrongly remembering?

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  20. Maybe he converted to Islam, then killed himself while he still had a clean slate! Smart move, no? Just kidding. :D

    I think I see what you mean about it might not have "took" even if he did convert. Does that mean salvation is a lifelong process of habit-changing and character-changing? Is that what you were saying too, Amber? What does that mean for someone who converts towards the end of their life?

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  21. Sarah,

    LOL @ mercy wars :D

    I'm going to make it into a new tv show. Mercy Wars! Who can forgive the hardest?!?! *makes big booming noises*

    I think the problem is that mercy and justice actually clash, and it's only in an extreme case like Hitler that you really see the clash and feel uncomfortable about it.

    I'd think that the clash between the two concepts is where you get people speculating on the existence of a third place, a way-station, if you like. For Catholics it's Purgatory. I believe, though I may be wrong, that in Islam hell is not permanent? That people go there, 'pay' through suffering for their sins, and then, once cleansed can go to heaven? Both points of view seek to mesh the idea of God's mercy and God's justice. It is merciful for God to forgive us our sins - if He didn't forgive, then we could never do anything to force Him to allow us into heaven. But is it just that we never have to pay for those sins? To make some sort of atonement? That doesn't seem to satisfy justice. It seems like they get away with 'it'. But if they pay for it after death, but are later, after being cleansed, after serving their sentence, allowed into heaven, wouldn't that satisfy both justice and mercy?

    I don't imagine that the idea would satisfy in many cases. Think of the people, not just terrorists or mass murderers, but dictators, serial killers. Rapists. Pedophiles. These are people who I firmly believe should be shot. I don't think that they deserve any earthly mercy and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around them being 'eligible' for divine mercy. But, I was told once, no sin is greater in God's eyes than another. We make a thing about breaking sin/crimes into major and minor categories, based on how much pain and suffering they cause to other people. To God, however, they all cause an equal amount of suffering. So how can I demand mercy for my 'minor' infractions - stealing, lying, etc. and reject the availability of that mercy for someone elses' 'major' infraction? *shrug* It's, for me, a very difficult question.

    For people of faith, I think at some point we just have to accept that, somehow, God manages to balance both mercy and justice. As for us, it's impossible. Whether a person believes in God or not, we have to deal with the world as it is. And that means that sometimes justice outweighs mercy, or mercy outweighs justice. Which decision is based on the circumstances and the people involved.

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  22. Susanne,

    I think I nattered on a bit about it in my response to Sarah.

    Yes, Hitler committed suicide. Along with his wife, Eva Braun. I sincerely doubt that Hitler would have made a death-bed conversion to anything, because he never thought that he was in the wrong. You only do such a thing if you feel regret for what you have done. I don't think that he did. He believed in what he was doing, which is terrifying when you think about it.

    But, assuming for a second that he did, suicide is considered a sin in both Christianity and Islam. I know, I know, suicide bombers. I think we can all agree that they're a perversion of Islamic teaching? Okay. So. Either way he went, assuming that he was not, in fact, mad and unable to make clear decisions, even if his slate had been wiped clean, his last act was self-murder, with no way to repent of it.

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  23. Sarah, I do think people can accept Christ while on their deathbeds, however, I believe this takes a genuine sorrow for their sins and repentance. Not a mere, "Oh no, I'm getting ready to die. I'd better get saved before I get shot!" That's not turning from sin, but essentially "buying life insurance" for lack of a better analogy.

    My "took" comment was more my wondering if Hitler had converted to Islam would he have then been OK and had his sins wiped out. Maybe that whole *intentions* thing re: Islam comes into play here!

    While salvation - as Amber describes it - is a process, I do think God can save sinners at the ends of their lives and one doesn't have to start that process in their teens or twenties. Otherwise we'd reach an age where it was pointless even to try. And I don't get that sense from Scripture that this is the case. I think it's important to follow Jesus while young since none of us are guaranteed to live to old age, but that's just me. :)

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  24. But with Christianity (at least, some forms of it), dying with a sin you haven't yet repented of doesn't take away a person's salvation. So that might not necessarily mean that it didn't take. (I love that wording, btw. :D)

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  25. Amber,

    "I'm going to make it into a new tv show. Mercy Wars! Who can forgive the hardest?!?! *makes big booming noises*"

    Ha! Or who can forgive the most vile criminal? Heheh. Yes, a TV show is perfect! :)


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on justice and mercy. I'd never heard hell in Islam might not be permanent until you mentioned it recently on another post! But I recall I am still doomed since shirk is unforgivable even after spending time in hell.



    I've often heard that God's justice was satisfied when Jesus died so when we accept Christ's work on the cross justice has been served. You might balk at this because no human justice was done and I understand that, however, if we keep in mind that we are God's creation it makes better sense. When I wrote about the Quran last year I remember I was talking about God's ability to forgive ALL sins. Islam - according to how I interpreted it - said God could only forgive those sins against Him, but not ones that I committed against you. I made the example of crimes in the US. When I commit a crime - say, murder, then it's not Tom Smith vs. Susanne. It's the State of North Carolina vs. Susanne. I didn't kill the State, but the State takes me to task for committing a crime against one of its own. It has to protect others and it becomes a much bigger deal than merely Tom's family against me for what I did to Tom.

    If God owns us (if we accept Him as Creator,us as creation) then when we hurt another, we ultimately hurt Him. So we've sinned against God by hurting one of His creatures. Therefore to make atonement for this, we must ask God's forgiveness and mercy. I'm not saying there is no point that we make things right between the humans we've wronged. The Bible is clear that we seek forgiveness and make restitution between those people. And even the State of NC would make sure I make restitution to Tom's family for my crime. But Tom's family cannot pardon me nor can they condemn me. Ultimately it's the State that can do either. And ultimately, I believe, it's God who can condemn or pardon me for what I did.

    That said, I can totally understand people who have a hard time with God's forgiveness of people who did certain things. And maybe I am totally wrong about this, but it's the way that makes some sense to me when I think of justice and mercy. If we believe it (justice/mercy) ultimately belongs to God because it all (life, everything) ultimately is FROM God...so be it.

    RE: Hitler's suicide -- And, yes,I can't see how you would genuinely convert to a religion and then self-murder in order to avoid human justice. If you are in sorrow over your sins, you want to make things right. Not take the 'easy way' out and kill yourself.

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  26. Sanil, LOL..."didn't take" is funny, isn't it? Andrew and I use it when we are being goofy.

    And I'm enjoying this conversation and it's up to 26 comments now! :)

    So glad you continued sharing these things, Amber. You never know when they will lead to something good.

    In this case, the book took! ;D

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  27. Sarah,

    Always working the angles, right? :D

    Does that mean salvation is a lifelong process of habit-changing and character-changing?

    Yes. There's an Orthodox saying, sort of a response to the Protestant question of, 'have you been saved?' which is, 'I have been saved, I am being saved, I hope to be saved.' It's not a one time event, but a process that lasts your entire life.

    What does that mean for someone who converts towards the end of their life?

    A good question. I would think that, in such a case, it would be a question of God's mercy. The person may not have had a whole lot of time to grow, to work toward their salvation, but if they were sincere in their conversion, in their aim and desire to do the will of God, if they had lived longer? Then how could God reject them? It's not about the number of years you serve God, or how many good things you do with them. It's about what you do with the time that you do have.

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  28. Susanne,

    I think it's important to follow Jesus while young since none of us are guaranteed to live to old age, but that's just me. :)

    Which is why children should be baptised, chrismated and communed from the beginning... :p But I certainly agree that God can save people at any point in their lives.

    *tilts head* I accept that Christ's death attoned for the sins of those who believe. But does that mean that we have no responsibility to try and undo the damage that we have done to ourselves and to others by our sinning? As for the question of no human justice being done...it does bother me. But I'm working on that. It's a personal flaw, not a theological one. :)

    If God owns us (if we accept Him as Creator,us as creation) then when we hurt another, we ultimately hurt Him. So we've sinned against God by hurting one of His creatures. Therefore to make atonement for this, we must ask God's forgiveness and mercy. I'm not saying there is no point that we make things right between the humans we've wronged. The Bible is clear that we seek forgiveness and make restitution between those people. And even the State of NC would make sure I make restitution to Tom's family for my crime. But Tom's family cannot pardon me nor can they condemn me. Ultimately it's the State that can do either. And ultimately, I believe, it's God who can condemn or pardon me for what I did.

    I agree with all of that. But there are two levels of justice. There's the justice of the world, and then there's God's justice. Just as, in your example, there is personal justice (the family) and the law. If a murderer, convicted and imprisoned, has a conversion and declares that God has forgiven them, should they be set free? No. They must serve their time. They must repay their debt to society, as cliched as that sounds.

    If you are in sorrow over your sins, you want to make things right. Not take the 'easy way' out and kill yourself.

    This. Too many times do I see people, on death row for horrific crimes, who argue for their lives because they've found God and are sorry now. Well, if you truly understood the depths of your crime, accept your punishment. Make your peace with God and know that He has forgiven you.

    But, then again, I'm primitive about this sort of thing. If someone killed a member of my family? I would not sit back and believe that God's justice would prevail. I mean, I do believe that, but I'd think it was part of my duty to give God the opportunity to take care of that face to face sooner rather than later, if you know what I mean. I'm by no means claiming that's the right, Christian attitude. Just the way I feel. Like I said - it's a process!

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  29. sanil,

    But with Christianity (at least, some forms of it), dying with a sin you haven't yet repented of doesn't take away a person's salvation. So that might not necessarily mean that it didn't take. (I love that wording, btw. :D)

    True. True. I guess we'd need to narrow down which denomination/religion Hitler theoretically converted to before he shot himself. Then we'd need to determine if he was of sound mind and body when he made the decision, because if he was non compos mentis, then the suicide itself wasn't a sin anyway.

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  30. "But if they pay for it after death, but are later, after being cleansed, after serving their sentence, allowed into heaven, wouldn't that satisfy both justice and mercy?"

    It all hinges on what is deserved, but I think justice in general is a human concept that evolved to make our societies work by punishing antisocial behaviours. Mercy also has a useful function depending on the situation. Maybe sometimes they clash, but that is the nature of human life, it's messy and it clashes with itself.

    Extending these human concepts into a divine perspective just makes it even messier for me, but it's a subjective thing.

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  31. Sarah,

    It all hinges on what is deserved, but I think justice in general is a human concept that evolved to make our societies work by punishing antisocial behaviours.

    True. It's all a matter of what you believe, I think. If you believe that there is a God, then the human concepts of justice and mercy are reflections of aspects He possesses. If, however, there is no God, then human society has evolved these concepts in order to, as you said, punish behavior that runs counter to the survival of the species.

    Extending these human concepts into a divine perspective just makes it even messier for me, but it's a subjective thing.

    I actually agree. But human concept and language is all we've got to work with.

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  32. Susanne - doesn't the state sort of enact justice on behalf of the wronged individuals? There are additional purposes that it serves by locking people up, such as deterring others from committing the crime, protecting society from the criminal, and rehabilitation of the criminal perhaps. So even if the victim forgave the person, they would still serve the sentence. Mercy is given sometimes, like when Scotland released al-Magrahi back to Libya because of his ill health. But the state just provides a faceless and supposedly neutral justice mechanism to make society run smoothly. I have never thought of God as something like that. God seems to be personally affected by human sins so in a way he is more like a second victim. And yet we do also look to God to provide ultimate justice for wrongs done to human victims, too. It seems quite complicated!

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  33. Amber,

    "Which is why children should be baptised, chrismated and communed from the beginning... :p "

    Haha! Actually after I wrote my comment, I went out walking and thought of this very thing..your ideas re: children being baptized and what it symbolized. I actually like that very much. And then I came inside and read this from you. Too cute! You were inside my mind! :)


    " But does that mean that we have no responsibility to try and undo the damage that we have done to ourselves and to others by our sinning? "

    Not at all! I think I mentioned it was important to ask forgiveness and make restitution to those we hurt. My point was more in response to those who say God can only forgive sins we commit against Him. My point was in reality ALL sins are against Him and He can forgive us for ALL sins. (Islam limited God to only forgiving sins we commit against Him and not others.) But, yes, we should undo the damage if we are able. You recall Zachaeus' pledge to restore four-fold those things he took from people in his greed.

    "As for the question of no human justice being done...it does bother me. But I'm working on that. It's a personal flaw, not a theological one. :)"

    I think it's a universal thing. That's why the desire for revenge is so strong in most of us. So you aren't alone in your personal flaw. :)

    "There's the justice of the world, and then there's God's justice. Just as, in your example, there is personal justice (the family) and the law. If a murderer, convicted and imprisoned, has a conversion and declares that God has forgiven them, should they be set free? No. They must serve their time. They must repay their debt to society, as cliched as that sounds."

    Definitely. And this is why I said if Hitler genuinely repented, he would have not killed himself, but allowed himself to stand trial for his crimes. My example was flawed, but I was trying to illustrate that God could forgive sins we commit against anyone. But I realize my example was lacking. It's hard to make examples dealing with God, I'm finding! :)

    Honestly I hope my one or two (or more...ahem) unconfessed sins don't keep me from salvation...errrr, I can't really keep up. *blushes*


    Sarah, my example was inadequate because yes, I was comparing God to an unfeeling entity, the State. I also mentioned that the victim was not able to pardon someone, but the State had the responsibility to execute justice. And in my bad example God satisfied this justice with Jesus. Yes, He was the victim as well because all creation is His. So when we hurt another human, we hurt Him. Sorry my example is confusing. I know what I mean, but it's hard to convey. :-)

    To put it in words Sanil would like: my example didn't take!

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  34. Susanne,

    I WIN! I've trained you well... :)

    Mine was a rhetorical question, of course. I think the concept of all sins ultimately being against God is very true. It's not just that we harm our fellow human being, or nature, or anything, but that we show disrespect and intent to harm the image of God within them.

    Definitely. And this is why I said if Hitler genuinely repented, he would have not killed himself, but allowed himself to stand trial for his crimes.

    Excatly. It's why I have such a problem with people on death row finding God and then begging to be allowed to live. If you really have found God, then you understand that you have to pay the consequences for your crimes. God has forgiven you, but that doesn't get you out of the temporal punishment.

    Honestly I hope my one or two (or more...ahem) unconfessed sins don't keep me from salvation...errrr, I can't really keep up. *blushes*

    Well, since the rapture's happening tomorrow, you better get on that! ;D

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  35. Hahahaha...oh, how that made me laugh!

    *runs to confess*


    :-D

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